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#313793 - 08/15/19 05:28 AM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17100
I am an ardent student of American history, the Constitution, and political philosophy. So, yes, I have very strong opinions. I wish you would take the time to read what I wrote, my friend, and not go off quarter-cocked with suppositions and accusations that are entirely unrelated to what I wrote. I was not criticizing those founders as hypocrites at all - I admire them. What I am saying is that the "conservative ideals" they wanted to believe and apply did not work in the real world, so they adapted, and, for the most part adapted marvelously. Both Jefferson and Madison are outstanding examples of such adaptation. I am not a purist, though I am an idealist.

I would ask that you approach this discussion with some humility rather than hubris.

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#313798 - 08/15/19 12:10 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9461
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Question for Senator Hatrack...

How does Classical Liberal ideology deal with non-monetized issues such as environmental degradation and social ills?
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You canít solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#313849 - 08/15/19 09:17 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: logtroll]
chunkstyle Online   content
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1748
I was seriously hoping for a response Logs. I was geniunely curious of Hatracks response.

Question I have for you though Logs is: What part of environmental degradation isn't monetized?

I have a harder time seeing what isn't than is.


Edited by chunkstyle (08/15/19 09:18 PM)

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#313865 - 08/15/19 11:13 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1596
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Going back to your original post, I am going to posit something that is likely to really, really tick you off: Liberals are the new conservatives.

No, it doesn't tick me off. Yesterday's liberals are tomorrow's conservatives. The modern day liberals (MDL) want to conserve the programs of the New Deal. Classical liberals want to get rid of them.

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
As a Liberal I want State governments to have the opportunity to experiment, to innovate, and to deviate from what other States are doing - so long as they don't interfere with those previously stated values. I believe in a government that is big enough to do its job, but not so much that it interferes with the life, liberty, and happiness stuff. Mostly what we disagree on is what those things are, and what is interference.

As a Classical Liberal you want to bring back federalism.
"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite."
James Madison
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#313868 - 08/15/19 11:29 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: chunkstyle]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9461
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Question I have for you though Logs is: What part of environmental degradation isn't monetized?

My point is that degradation is all too often ignored as a cost of doing business, if the free marketeer can get away with it. It's called "externalization", precisely because the cost is not part of the economic calculation.

The "fixing" (or the repercussions of not fixing) the damage falls to all of society, sometimes all of the earth, which is a massive failure of the "free market" ideology. Which means that the myth of free markets ignores the fact that they are supported by socialism. In my opinion...
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You canít solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#313869 - 08/15/19 11:31 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14315
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Equal economic rights is to make everyone's economic situation the same.


Nope, nope and nope. Egalitarianism as applied to economics is not about equal outcomes, it's about equal opportunity.

PS: Equal outcomes is not socialism, it's communism.
There's a difference, even though it is clear you probably don't believe there is.


Edited by Jeffery J. Haas (08/15/19 11:35 PM)
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#313870 - 08/15/19 11:32 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Mellowicious Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 9624
Loc: flyover country
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Yesterday's liberals are tomorrow's conservatives.


Curious - are you saying that liberal philosophy becomes the new conservate position, or that the liberal abandon their philosophy for that of the conservatives?
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Long time passing

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#313885 - 08/16/19 04:30 AM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15475
Loc: Florida
Quote:
As a Classical Liberal you want to bring back federalism.
"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite."
James Madison


That just isn't what the USA evolved into though. The states didn't evolve into small autonomous nations with a 6 foot 5 big brother who would kick your ass if you f*cked with them. We became one big nation who pledged allegience to a single flag.

I think my social democracy is gonna be way easier than your federalism. And way more popular.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#313887 - 08/16/19 04:51 AM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17100
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Going back to your original post, I am going to posit something that is likely to really, really tick you off: Liberals are the new conservatives.

No, it doesn't tick me off. Yesterday's liberals are tomorrow's conservatives. The modern day liberals (MDL) want to conserve the programs of the New Deal. Classical liberals want to get rid of them.

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
As a Liberal I want State governments to have the opportunity to experiment, to innovate, and to deviate from what other States are doing - so long as they don't interfere with those previously stated values. I believe in a government that is big enough to do its job, but not so much that it interferes with the life, liberty, and happiness stuff. Mostly what we disagree on is what those things are, and what is interference.

As a Classical Liberal you want to bring back federalism.
"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite."
James Madison
I fully agree that the federal government is one of enumerated powers (and limited thereby), and that States possess what are described as "general police powers". But within those enumerated authorities, the federal government has both superior ( Article VI, cl. 2) and, in many cases, plenary authority. For example, States may not enter into treaties, engage in international warfare, or tax (or even) commerce of and interstate or international character. In my view we have never lost federalism.

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