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#319458 - 12/30/19 01:21 AM Re: College debt [Re: CPWILL]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16919
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I hope you are able to get past that, as it's only going to harm you. frown

Sorry friend, but the harm has been done and there is no recovering from it. As you pointed out, we disagree. I expect that to be a recurring theme and I'm okay with that. After all....it's what we're here for.

Quote:
I don't think I would say that their goal was social democracy.

Of the rich, for the rich and by the rich was their actual plan but that sounded a bit too high and mighty so even then they lied to the people they were trying to convince. They lied them into fighting a war and creating a new country dedicated to making the rich richer at the expense of the poor. In that they have been incredibly successful.

The experiment is winding down and it has failed.
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#319461 - 12/30/19 01:36 AM Re: College debt [Re: Mellowicious]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9964
Loc: North San Diego County
That was a time when only white men who owned property were expected to vote. The founders expected them to elect staid gentlemen of letters with highly developed senses of ethics to Congress. Direct Democracy really was anathema to almost all of them. They were horrified by the idea of dock workers or shepherds voting. We have evolved to a much more democratic society simply by letting most people vote.

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#319464 - 12/30/19 02:24 AM Re: College debt [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16919
Loc: Florida
Quote:
We have evolved to a much more democratic society simply by letting most people vote.


Yes, as I said, many things have changed since the 18th century.
Society has evolved into a more democratic entity but government has clung to it's original goal of enriching the already wealthy on the backs of everyone else.
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#319472 - 12/30/19 02:44 PM Re: College debt [Re: Greger]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 600
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
We have evolved to a much more democratic society simply by letting most people vote.


Yes, as I said, many things have changed since the 18th century.
Society has evolved into a more democratic entity but government has clung to it's original goal of enriching the already wealthy on the backs of everyone else.


If you're filthy rich but still want to look like you believe in democracy, you spend a few bucks to get people to vote the way you want them to.

If you can trick people into believing that life is a zero-sum game, they will vote for the "winners" at their own expense, because a couple of hundred years of destructive conditioning have taught them to worship the winners.
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#319473 - 12/30/19 02:46 PM Re: College debt [Re: CPWILL]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 600
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: CPWILL


smile Quite the Contrary, Classic Liberalism is generally what Conservatives are Conserving, and here in America, that meant conserving our political institutions and liberties.


You sure?

Asking for a toddler in a gulag.
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#319474 - 12/30/19 04:35 PM Re: College debt [Re: Hamish Howl]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16919
Loc: Florida
That toddler was trying to gain improper (and illegal) access to our freedoms. Liberty isn't for everyone and it isn't something we share freely. Classic liberalism limits liberty strictly to those who they think deserve it. Modern liberalism believes that all deserve it.
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#319475 - 12/30/19 04:57 PM Re: College debt [Re: CPWILL]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17398
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
What we call "Liberalism" today has little connection to the "Liberalism" of the 18th century, which emphasized distrust of government, wide realms of individual liberty, and free market economics. Progressives sort of discredited the name under the Wilson Administration, and so (Dewey was one of the first to urge this shift) took on "Liberalism" as a title instead, so as to reduce association with the former.
I disagree with this historical revisionism, but I think that is for a different thread. (Much of the rest of your post I agreed with, but this stuck out with me.)

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#319476 - 12/30/19 05:08 PM Re: College debt [Re: CPWILL]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17398
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I can't remember if I posted this here. If not, I should have: Forgiving student debt would boost the economy (npr)


While I'm not entirely against the idea that we could potentially realize positive long term net results from a program of debt forgiveness, the first half of the article you cite makes the same critical error that most demand-side stimulus programs do: They do not ask where the wealth that they are spending is coming from, or what it would otherwise be doing.

If, for example, I take money from a middle class couple who both work but who lack college degrees in order to give that money to an upper middle class couple who both have advanced degrees... it's not exactly a fair scoring to pretend like the money only sprang into existence when I gave it to the second couple. When measuring economic benefit, we have to measure what the second couple will do with the money (and what the exogenous effects will be of increasing moral hazard and decreasing the effectiveness of price signalling in education decisions) against what the first couple would have done, and what the follow-on effects would have been.

Again, I'm not against it entirely (and earlier put forward what I thought might be a fair bipartisan compromise for achieving student debt relief), but this means of economic scoring is one that, I think, has done us immense economic harm. Even the second half of this piece, which gives a nod to the drag on the economy that would result, doesn't seem to recognize that investment is a productive activity, and that the wealthy are those most likely to shift their activity in response to tax rate changes.
There's a lot to unpack there and I'm not in a position to do much of it now. I just wanted to take the opportunity to say 1) good discussion, and 2) for me, solving the college debt conundrum is an opportunity to address the underlying social problem of class/wealth inequality of opportunity that exists in our country. There are a LOT of academic studies that have identified the problem, and it is one of the most un-American conditions that exists in our society, which is aspirationally based on meritocracy.

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#319477 - 12/30/19 05:14 PM Re: College debt [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17398
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Outstanding! We need that to be a class required for high school graduation in every district in the US. So many new grads are absolutely clueless about signing up for a lifetime of debt to pursue some economically non-viable college path. I love what an author on Slate told her daughter:

paraphrased: "With the debt you would incur to go to a fancy art school, you could not afford to be a fine artist for decades because you would have to work at a mundane job to service the debt."

Instead she sent her daughter to a perfectly fine state university with a good art program, and paid her bills without loans.

I think we also need to massively expand trade training paths in the junior colleges. Unions used to have apprentice programs, but unions are decimated now.
Hear, hear!!
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Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#319479 - 12/30/19 06:10 PM Re: College debt [Re: NW Ponderer]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16919
Loc: Florida
If we think these are good ideas, we need only petition the Secretary of Education, who most assuredly would agree with us. These changes in curriculum and debt structure should be easy to make in a simple bi-partisan manner.

Who is the current Secretary of Education anyway? Is he working to make this a reality...?
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