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#313987 - 08/19/19 01:38 PM Global warming predictions
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
I spent a half hour this morning watching videos of river running, looking for a good metaphor for our approach to the climate crisis. Didn't find what I was looking for, I think because watching a boat go though a big set of rapids from the shore is nothing like actually being in the river.

Many rivers in the western U.S. with big rapids are a type that's known as 'pool and drop', the product of a geologic situation where tributary streams deposit boulders and such into the main river from floods, or ridges of solid rock from granitic or igneous formations. You will float along on stretches of fairly calm water, sometimes for a mile, then around a bend up ahead will come a gradually increasing noise of turbulent water. You can tell big water from the pitch of the sound and how long it takes to get to it. When it comes into view, the first thing you see is not big waves and white water - you see a flat horizon of water across the river, with maybe a few splashes coming up from below. And a loud roar... The steeper the gradient, the closer you have to get to see where to go. We usually have maps and descriptions of the rapids, of course, which provide guidance about where to enter the run and how best to maneuver on the way through. In my experience, you can run a Class II rapid pretty casually as set up and maneuvering are not critical, and you can see the rocks and hazards from quite a distance away. A Class III will have a horizon and set up at the top is fairly important, but emergency maneuvers on the way through are possible. Class IV is a type you had better scout and run correctly, as the wrong line is a probable swim - and swimming in whitewater is no fun (it's not really even swimming...). I have never run a Class V, but can speculate that you'll want to take a quick s*** while you're on the shore scouting in order to avoid an unwanted distraction as you risk your life. Class VI is un-runnable without a serious mishap probably resulting in death...

As I see it, many people can hear the global warming rapids coming from down the river, but we are drifting slowly through the long pool, warm sun shining, laying back in the raft sipping a beer and watching the canyon above for Bighorn sheep - it's still not anything to start preparing for. Unfortunately, no one has run The Big One that's around the bend, and it's a Class V or VI. The proper action at this point would be to put ashore to do some serious scouting (unmetaphorically speaking, to begin making some radical changes to the lazy, thoughtless, and indulgent way we have become accustomed to living). The river of our culture is approaching a major drop, which will likely need portaging, or maybe abandoning our gear entirely and hiking out of the canyon.

But my prediction is that we will not manage any meaningful proactivity before the pool ends at a horizon across the river, and will panic when reaching the top of The Big One rapids without a decent set up or the ability to maneuver on the way down.

Hey, would somebody pass me a cold beer?
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#313989 - 08/19/19 02:21 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Waterfall. Sharp rocks. Who survives the fall will likely drown.
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#314022 - 08/20/19 02:21 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Interesting, but I take note that the author didn't actually name any local actions that people can implement to fight the climate crisis.

I believe the primary reason that folks generally don't know what they can do, is that what can be done on a personal level involves a conscious and willing choice to make some effort... (please see my new signature line below).

Think globally, act locally.
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#314025 - 08/20/19 05:05 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Local efforts are a crap waste of time. Recycling is a local effort. We have failed miserably. Microplastics have just been found in pristine arctic snow. Plastic has been found at the bottom of the Marianna Trench. Mt. Everest is littered with tons of garbage, dead bodies and frozen s*** as a daily queu of "climbers" wanders up the airless slope in a disillusioned line. Each laden with more garbage and s***. Locals try to keep things clean but they just can't keep up.

We all try to keep our carbon footprint as small as possible without actually giving anything up. But when the beach is covered with footprints who can tell what size they are?

Follow the science.

A massive extinction event is demonstrably underway.

Atmospheric CO2 rising. Temperature rising. Ice melting. Seas rising.

Homo Sapiens might imagine himself to be more than just another animal dependent on the earth, air, and water for survival. But I've got news...

My actual prediction is dire. But I can see a path to our survival and future success as a species.
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#314030 - 08/20/19 06:59 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Greger]
itstarted Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 6428
Loc: Florida/Illinois
What Greger said.. 100%
.............................................
Circa 1978... On the wrong branch of a river in the Adirondaks, son in the bow, me in the stern... faster, and suddenly louder... rounding a bend and looking at 5 feet of fog/water, and a 45 degree drop between sheer sharp rocks. Heart stopping... no choice.. three minutes of sheer terror... canoe 1/4 filled with water.
It finally flattened out, a brought us to a tiny village... met on the shore by a resident asking "How did you get here?".

That's what Class V is.

I am seriously afraid that attempts at saving the environment are analogous to going back upstream in that river.

Last chance that I see is adopting the Social Credit System. Not recommending but I can see no way forward. Afraid we've run out of time. Today's population of the US, is 329M... when I was born, it was 136M.

To lighten this up a bit, read this article about Harry, and Elton John....

Quote:
The total for the two flights would therefore be 19.8 tonnes, equivalent to more than three times the annual carbon footprint of the average Briton, or 58 times the annual emissions of someone in Lesotho, where Prince Harry went on his gap year and helped found a charity.

Harry and Elton
... and then check to see if your #7 plastic bottle is recyclable. grin



Edited by itstarted (08/20/19 07:01 PM)
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#314033 - 08/20/19 07:47 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8771
Loc: North San Diego County
We need a complete revamp of the recyclable container industry. We have a large number of plastics we use for these containers and packaging. We need to outlaw those that are not recyclable and color code the remaining plastics. Recycling centers are closing because they can't make enough money to stay in business. We need to outlaw mixed packaging, where the recyclable components are difficult to separate. We also need to institute large fines for putting contaminated plastic in recycle bins. People actually put dirty diapers in them, and it screws up the sorting machine badly.

The recycle stream has to be easy to machine sort. There has to be real recycling on the other end of the sort facility, that really use the plastic to make other plastic items of the same color instead of shipping it to poor countries to be dumped or burned. Or there could be facilities that burn unrecyclable colors to completion to generate electricity.

We can make recycling work, it just costs more when you don't externalize. Turns out "externalization" comes right back and bites you in the ass. There really is no such thing. It's just littering on a global scale.

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#314037 - 08/20/19 09:11 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Greger
...We all try to keep our carbon footprint as small as possible without actually giving anything up. But when the beach is covered with footprints who can tell what size they are?

Here's the main local, actually personal, thing that needs to happen (but virtually no one will do it by choice) - BE LIKE GREGER. Don't do much, don't consume much, reduce your desires.
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#314040 - 08/20/19 10:23 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Well, Logmeister, you sure nailed that one down. But I didn't do it by choice either. $7.21 an hour doesn't necessarily reduce your desires but it definitely reduces your options.
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#314043 - 08/21/19 12:07 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
I do admire how you have adjusted your philosophy and outlook to fit your circumstances, however un-chosen they be. And as for your carbon footprint, I'd speculate that it is less than 10% of most of us here.

Maybe there's something we can do - give trophies for the smallest carbon feetprints!
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#314044 - 08/21/19 12:23 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
itstarted Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 6428
Loc: Florida/Illinois
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#314049 - 08/21/19 05:43 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8771
Loc: North San Diego County
I'm reducing my carbon footprint, at least going forward. I have enough solar panels that I won't have to buy any electricity in the coming years. I'm also converting from propane to solar heat, solar hot water, and electric stove & clothes dryer. We hardly ever use the dryer, though. We have a clothes line! All of this stuff is quite practical in San Diego County.

My primary vehicle is a small hybrid.

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#314054 - 08/21/19 02:44 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Pretty good article, but you have to sign up with medium.com (it's a good thing to be signed up with, though...)

better technology isn't the solution to environmental collapse
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#314186 - 08/25/19 10:17 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1589
Loc: MN
In the 1970's the "climate scientists" were predicting a global freeze caused by the use of fossil fuel.
http://www.populartechnology.net/2013/02/the-1970s-global-cooling-alarmism.html
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I'm a conservative because I question authority.
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#314188 - 08/25/19 10:40 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
It's amazing that no new data or climate modeling methodologies have appeared in the past 40 years... I guess that's just the way the cookie bounces... Hmm
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#314196 - 08/25/19 11:34 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1589
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: logtroll
It's amazing that no new data or climate modeling methodologies have appeared in the past 40 years... I guess that's just the way the cookie bounces... Hmm

In other words they were wrong in the 1970's and they are wrong now.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#314201 - 08/25/19 11:41 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
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I bet most of them are retired or dead...

What's your point? You can't logically argue that science is wrong all of the time just because some scientists were wrong once, or changed their theories as new data and modeling were available.

Your turn - what do you believe, and what is your basis for it?
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#314206 - 08/25/19 11:53 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1589
Loc: MN
What I believe is that climate change has and does happen. The idea that it is man made is a political not scientific one. Look at the "remedies" for the coming global cooling that were made back in the 1970's. Those proposed solutions were political not scientific.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#314207 - 08/26/19 12:01 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
You think the 1970's science was political why?
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#314215 - 08/26/19 12:35 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1589
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: logtroll
You think the 1970's science was political why?
I told you why. Read the solutions that were proposed to stop the predicted global cooling back in the 1970's. They are the same political solutions that being suggested to stop the predicted global warming/climate change today.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#314218 - 08/26/19 12:47 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Quote:
What I believe is that climate change has and does happen.

Well sure! We're only 10,000 years or so from an ice age. But there were reasons for them then too. A huge meteorite or massive volcanic eruptions, shite like that don't just happen out of the blue. This time around it's becoming pretty clear that the problem is too much CO2. Just coincidentally billions upon billions of people are creating huge amounts of CO2 and have been for centuries. Two and two have already been put together. Along and along, if you live long enough, that will become painfully clear.

Your reasons for denying it are mostly economic right? That it's too expensive to try to do anything about it so we shouldn't try?

You do understand that when Greenland has melted the seas will be 25 feet higher than they are today, right? And it's happening right before our eyes.

Exciting times these! Manhattan and Miami will be no more, New Orleans a memory. Orlando a Beach town! Wonder where them folks gonna go, will they be considered refugees? How they gonna be treated by the starving folks inland....
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#314219 - 08/26/19 12:54 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8771
Loc: North San Diego County
We know very well now how much CO2 fossil fuel burning is putting into the atmosphere. We also know the rate at which atmospheric CO2 is taken up by the ocean and eventually turned into carbonate minerals. Everything else is dwarfed by those two flows. We know the excess ends up in the atmosphere, and we know the greenhouse effect of the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere.

So what is there to doubt? Anybody denying man-made global warming at this point just does not want to acknowledge the truth, for political reasons. Climate science is science. Climate change denial is politics. Politics that is going to make it very difficult for our grandchildren to forgive us.

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#314220 - 08/26/19 12:56 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: logtroll
You think the 1970's science was political why?
I told you why. Read the solutions that were proposed to stop the predicted global cooling back in the 1970's. They are the same political solutions that being suggested to stop the predicted global warming/climate change today.

That's pretty lame for a basis for belief. But, if it's the best you can do... rolleyes
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#314224 - 08/26/19 01:00 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Greger]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1589
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
What I believe is that climate change has and does happen.

Well sure! We're only 10,000 years or so from an ice age. But there were reasons for them then too. A huge meteorite or massive volcanic eruptions, shite like that don't just happen out of the blue. This time around it's becoming pretty clear that the problem is too much CO2. Just coincidentally billions upon billions of people are creating huge amounts of CO2 and have been for centuries. Two and two have already been put together. Along and along, if you live long enough, that will become painfully clear.

Your reasons for denying it are mostly economic right? That it's too expensive to try to do anything about it so we shouldn't try?

You do understand that when Greenland has melted the seas will be 25 feet higher than they are today, right? And it's happening right before our eyes.

Exciting times these! Manhattan and Miami will be no more, New Orleans a memory. Orlando a Beach town! Wonder where them folks gonna go, will they be considered refugees? How they gonna be treated by the starving folks inland....

Then apparently Pres. Obama does not believe in global warming. If he did he would not have bought a mansion on Martha's Vineyard, an island on the Atlantic Ocean, for $15,000,000. If Manhattan and Miami are washed away by the rising tide Martha's Vineyard will be too.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#314227 - 08/26/19 01:14 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Bad Obama!

What kind of a Dodge are you driving, Senator?
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#314229 - 08/26/19 01:24 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8771
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There are parts of Miami and Manhattan that are just a few feet above sea level. A six foot rise would be disasterous. The pictures I have seen of Obama's house look a lot higher than that.

But you know, we were not talking about what President Obama believes or doesn't believe. We were talking about you just ignoring facts because they contradict your political beliefs.

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#314230 - 08/26/19 01:33 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
My niece lives over on Merritt Island, elevation 3 feet. She believes in global warming but it's nice living on the beach....Someday a hurricane is gonna wipe Merritt Island off the map, but probably not tomorrow. Could be later this year though. A lot of little towns like that are gonna start getting abandoned. all over the world.
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#314231 - 08/26/19 01:44 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Greger]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Seems like some of the science back in the 70s was okay, they figured out there were holes in the ozone, banned flourocarbons and the holes healed up. Global chilling was averted YAY SCIENCE!!!

That's the myth anyway and it suits my political leanings perfectly. Trust the scientists not the politicians.
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#314234 - 08/26/19 02:01 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
And Senator, it's good to see you! Don't look at this as some sort of battleground, please. We're all just sort of blogging our thoughts here and using each other as foils. It really is a pleasure to have you posting here!
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#314236 - 08/26/19 02:19 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: pondering_it_all]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1589
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
There are parts of Miami and Manhattan that are just a few feet above sea level. A six foot rise would be disasterous. The pictures I have seen of Obama's house look a lot higher than that.

But you know, we were not talking about what President Obama believes or doesn't believe. We were talking about you just ignoring facts because they contradict your political beliefs.

People have credibility when their actions match their words. Pres. Obama is a big proponent of global warming and rising sea levels. If his actions were to match his words he would not have bought a mansion on an island in the Atlantic Ocean. His actions do not match his words. That they don't he is either a liar, but then he is a politician so I'm repeating myself, or a hypocrite. Or how about the guru of global warming, VP Al Gore? His carbon footprint is probably bigger than everyone here on the Reader Rant. If you don't practice what you preach why should anyone believe you? (That's a rhetorical question, BTW.)
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The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#314238 - 08/26/19 02:33 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Fun deflection.

Now, what is your global warming prediction?
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#314241 - 08/26/19 02:52 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Obama doesn't need to flee from the coast any more than my niece does. It's not a Tsunami or anything. We have years to plan for this but by all accounts it appears to be inevitable.
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#314243 - 08/26/19 03:16 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8771
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And just because a few folks have feet of clay does not say anything at all about the science. Senator, you are making political arguments in the face of scientific facts. This IS happening as we speak. The arctic ice is almost gone. The permafrost is melting in the far North and whole towns are being destroyed because they were built on ice. That melted permafrost is starting to out-gas methane. Ships are using the Arctic ocean as a shortcut when they never could even 10 years ago. The West Antarctic Ice Shelf is very rapidly slipping into the ocean.

Please note that these are all facts: Not "somebody did something" excuses.

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#314244 - 08/26/19 03:43 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: pondering_it_all]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1589
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
And just because a few folks have feet of clay does not say anything at all about the science. Senator, you are making political arguments in the face of scientific facts. This IS happening as we speak. The arctic ice is almost gone. The permafrost is melting in the far North and whole towns are being destroyed because they were built on ice. That melted permafrost is starting to out-gas methane. Ships are using the Arctic ocean as a shortcut when they never could even 10 years ago. The West Antarctic Ice Shelf is very rapidly slipping into the ocean.

Please note that these are all facts: Not "somebody did something" excuses.

Are they? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/...E-FREE-now.html
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#314246 - 08/26/19 11:53 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
And just because a few folks have feet of clay does not say anything at all about the science. Senator, you are making political arguments in the face of scientific facts. This IS happening as we speak. The arctic ice is almost gone. The permafrost is melting in the far North and whole towns are being destroyed because they were built on ice. That melted permafrost is starting to out-gas methane. Ships are using the Arctic ocean as a shortcut when they never could even 10 years ago. The West Antarctic Ice Shelf is very rapidly slipping into the ocean.

Please note that these are all facts: Not "somebody did something" excuses.

Are they? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/...E-FREE-now.html

Daily Mailís relationship with the truth
The Daily Mail is a questionable source:
Quote:
QUESTIONABLE SOURCE

A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency and/or is fake news. Fake News is the deliberate attempt to publish hoaxes and/or disinformation for the purpose of profit or influence (Learn More). Sources listed in the Questionable Category may be very untrustworthy and should be fact checked on a per article basis. Please note sources on this list are not considered fake news unless specifically written in the reasoning section for that source.
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#314247 - 08/26/19 04:12 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1589
Loc: MN
Since everyone has a bias everyone and every news source is questionable.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#314251 - 08/26/19 05:52 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
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Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Since everyone has a bias everyone and every news source is questionable.

Certainly, but the range of questionableness varies widely, and is somewhat measurable.
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#314259 - 08/26/19 07:07 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
The author of the Daily Mail article has every right to his opinion. Not everyone is convinced of the science yet, why there was a day once when they said a man would never go to the moon! Some still say he never has.

My belief is that, if nothing else, sea level rise will eventually convince even the tabloid press that global warming is real and man made.

In another 20 years there won't be any deniers.
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#314269 - 08/26/19 09:06 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6838
Loc: Highlands, Tx
geeez .... come on folks .... conservative denial is only tenuously and disingenuously based on scientific criticism but 100% based on idiot-ological beliefs. It would not matter if God or whatever master a conservative believed in told them personally the science is good and there are consequences of climate change ... conservatives would reject it as it is contrary to fundamental conservative beliefs and tenets.

Now if anyone can recall Russian Stalinist history, especially during the 1930's and 40's, one would notice the similarities i.e. science had to conform to communist ideology, otherwise it was rejected. Modern American conservatives are in the same time warp.

My guess is none of the political conservativce critics understand the science but they intimately understand the financial impact to businesses, especially fossil fuel based industries. When they are questioned, eventually they will admit it is about the financial impact on those businesses. Just listen to Mr trump at G7. Windmills ... bah ... oil ... yah.

Even if these people live in compromised coastal areas, and should they live long enough, and should the predictions prove accurate in that time frame, and they find themselves waist deep in water, begging for government action, they would still reject the human impact on climate change and simply say, the weather did it.

I see no point in discussing it with conservative deniers, especially if they have not read any of the scientific literature (on both sides) and rely solely on idiot-ological talking points.

I am hoping God will take a peek and sigh ... failed experiment ... let's start again
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#314274 - 08/26/19 09:17 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Since everyone has a bias everyone and every news source is questionable.

Even NOAA? Hmm
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#314275 - 08/26/19 09:20 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
People have credibility when their actions match their words. Pres. Obama is a big proponent of global warming and rising sea levels. If his actions were to match his words he would not have bought a mansion on an island in the Atlantic Ocean. His actions do not match his words.

That seems to be the newest rightwing talking point. Do you guys all get together on weekends and determine want to post in public forums over the week? Hmm
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#314279 - 08/26/19 10:08 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: pdx rick]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
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Seriously? That's a thing? In a hundred years it might be flooded so he shouldn't move there because climate change?
I thought the Senator just made that up to be silly...
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#314283 - 08/27/19 03:55 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8771
Loc: North San Diego County
Did you happen to notice that Daily Mail article is dated 2019 but is actually a recycled 2014 article using quotes from 2006 and 2009?

This is a much more current source: (August 15th, 2019)
Arctic Sea Ice News and Analysis

Quote:
At mid-month, Arctic sea ice extent is tracking close to 2012, the year with the lowest minimum in the satellite record. Sea ice volume is also tracking at low levels.


It also has the great advantage of NOT BEING A TABLOID! From Wikipedia:

Quote:
The Daily Mail has been widely criticised for its unreliability, as well as printing of sensationalist and inaccurate scare stories of science and medical research, and for copyright violations.

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#314312 - 08/27/19 09:27 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Lotta places don't allow Wiki as a source.

I think the Senator is trolling us. But it's cool, it's fun having him around. You almost forget that there are people out there who believe that nonsense.

Global warming is pretty much settled science. It's observable, measurable, and predictable. The cause has been pinpointed and preliminary efforts have begun to mitigate it. Denying it is pretty silly at this point.

But it may not be as bad as predicted...who knows.

Looks like Tropical Storm Dorian is making a beeline for my back door right now. I'm not evacuating yet(or ever). A quick glance at the cracked crystal ball says it's gonna veer right and drench Greenland with warm tropical winds and rain. Unless I''ve got it turned the wrong way and it's gonna go west of me. It's an ancient artifact, it doesn't have auto flip.

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#314314 - 08/27/19 10:42 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Greger]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1589
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Greger
Lotta places don't allow Wiki as a source.

I think the Senator is trolling us. But it's cool, it's fun having him around. You almost forget that there are people out there who believe that nonsense.

Global warming is pretty much settled science. It's observable, measurable, and predictable. The cause has been pinpointed and preliminary efforts have begun to mitigate it. Denying it is pretty silly at this point.

But it may not be as bad as predicted...who knows.
Why is global warming settled science? Because you believe it? Because of the hockey stick graph? Or is it because 97% of "climate scientists" say it is?

No denying it is not silly. It isn't because it hasn't been proven and the claims made by the climate scientists, as you said, might be exaggerated. When the cause of global cooling and global warming are blamed on the same, the use of fossil fuels, the credibility of the claims are very questionable.
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#314316 - 08/27/19 10:54 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
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Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
No denying it is not silly. It isn't because it hasn't been proven and the claims made by the climate scientists, as you said, might be exaggerated. When the cause of global cooling and global warming are blamed on the same, the use of fossil fuels, the credibility of the claims are very questionable.

Denying it without any scientific basis seems like it just might be silly...

For the record, what do you think is going on, and what evidence do you have for your belief?
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#314318 - 08/27/19 11:20 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1589
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
No denying it is not silly. It isn't because it hasn't been proven and the claims made by the climate scientists, as you said, might be exaggerated. When the cause of global cooling and global warming are blamed on the same, the use of fossil fuels, the credibility of the claims are very questionable.

Denying it without any scientific basis seems like it just might be silly...

For the record, what do you think is going on, and what evidence do you have for your belief?


Climate change does and has happened. The history of climate change over the millenniums of the earth's existence make the idea that the use of fossil fuel is now causing it is far fetched. When Leif Ericsson, a very distant relative of mine, was exploring Greenland was called that because it had large areas of arable land. It doesn't have that today. No one was using fossil fuel in those days.

Here are some claims made by climate scientists in the 1970's saying that the use of fossil fuels will cause global cooling if the use of them is not stopped.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/03/01/global-cooling-compilation/
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#314319 - 08/27/19 11:49 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

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So, no science... just a rumor about Greenland from a long time ago and some 50 year old speculation?

Nice work on the genealogy, though. I can only trace back through great grandparents.
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#314326 - 08/28/19 12:36 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Y'know "science" can never be right or wrong. Because it's never complete. Way back in the 70s scientists started noticing some wonky readings on the recording devices. They got the part right about the climate changing and they got the part right about fossil fuels being the cause of it. But they didn't have enough data yet to predict which way the climate would swing. They've got the data now.

They were right then and they're right now. But there is a lot more to be learned. Nothing they're learning seems to point toward it all being a Chinese hoax though.
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#314330 - 08/28/19 01:02 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1589
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: logtroll
So, no science... just a rumor about Greenland from a long time ago and some 50 year old speculation?

Nice work on the genealogy, though. I can only trace back through great grandparents.

No, it is not a rumor. There were farms on Greenland.
https://archive.archaeology.org/online/features/greenland/

Did you look at the list of articles in the link I posted? (For some strange reason most of the articles from the LA Times, NY Times, and Washington Post have been removed from those newspaper's websites.)
http://www.wmconnolley.org.uk/sci/iceage/ny-times-1975-05-21.pdf
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The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
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#314334 - 08/28/19 01:28 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
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I am very curious as to why some people work so hard to ignore the preponderance of science in favor of weird propaganda.
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#314336 - 08/28/19 01:42 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1589
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: logtroll
I am very curious as to why some people work so hard to ignore the preponderance of science in favor of weird propaganda.

A publication of the Archaeological Institute of America is weird propaganda?
https://archive.archaeology.org/online/features/greenland/
An article from the NYT, quoting the National Academy of Sciences, the National Center for Atmospheric Research, and other scientific organizations is weird propaganda?
http://www.wmconnolley.org.uk/sci/iceage/ny-times-1975-05-21.pdf
If those articles were supporting the claim of global warming they would be accepted as "settled science." But since they are not they are weird propaganda. Do I detect a double standard here?
_________________________
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I'm a conservative because I question authority.
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#314337 - 08/28/19 01:52 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
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ďSome farmsĒ does not logically imply that Greenland was substantially ice free. Some of the Greenland ice sheets are 3km thick and have been there for hundreds of thousands of years.

And newspaper articles from 49 years ago need to be put in context with current science.

You have your mind made up and are desperately grasping for anything to confirm your bias.

Why is your mind made up?
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#314339 - 08/28/19 02:00 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1589
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: logtroll
ďSome farmsĒ does not logically imply that Greenland was substantially ice free. Some of the Greenland ice sheets are 3km thick and have been there for hundreds of thousands of years.

And newspaper articles from 49 years ago need to be put in context with current science.

You have your mind made up and are desperately grasping for anything to confirm your bias.

Why is your mind made up?

The article from the Archeology website did not say that all of Greenland was ice free. Do you read the articles before you comment on them? The article from 49 years ago is to put the current science in context. You are ignoring information you don't like to confirm your bias, logtroll.
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The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
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#314340 - 08/28/19 02:06 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
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If thatís what you want to believe. I have learned that you folks are impenetrable when it comes to facts and discussion. Guess Iíll quit wasting time and energy, if that suits you?
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#314354 - 08/28/19 03:23 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1589
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: logtroll
If thatís what you want to believe. I have learned that you folks are impenetrable when it comes to facts and discussion. Guess Iíll quit wasting time and energy, if that suits you?

Thank you for showing that it is you that has the closed mind logtroll. You cannot, you refuse to, you completely reject anything that questions the idea of global warming. Since I don't automatically accept what you believe you think any further discussion of this is a waste of time. If you want to run away from the discussion that is up to you. Should you do that whatever you say from now on has little or no credibility with me.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
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#314356 - 08/28/19 03:35 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6838
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Like I typed in another thread .... there is no way anyone can conduct an intelligent discussion with a climate denier who relies on propaganda and ideology.

Please stay away from "news" articles about climatology and stick to the scientific studies.
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#314358 - 08/28/19 03:38 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: rporter314]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1589
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: rporter314
Like I typed in another thread .... there is no way anyone can conduct an intelligent discussion with a climate denier who relies on propaganda and ideology.

Please stay away from "news" articles about climatology and stick to the scientific studies.


Another shining example of a closed mind.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
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#314362 - 08/28/19 07:22 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
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Everybody here just thinks you must be trolling us with your 50 year old newspaper articles. That's okay. We used to have a great troll here at Reader Rant who stayed in character for years. He preferred "the good old days" too, but for him that meant The Gilded Age. Quite hilarious!

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#314380 - 08/28/19 03:27 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: rporter314
Like I typed in another thread .... there is no way anyone can conduct an intelligent discussion with a climate denier who relies on propaganda and ideology.

Please stay away from "news" articles about climatology and stick to the scientific studies.


Another shining example of a closed mind.


An open mind is one apparently one that is unhindered by facts.
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#314381 - 08/28/19 03:54 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Greger]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Global temperatures rising is a fact.

Ice sheets melting is a fact.

Rising sea levels...fact.

Increased CO2 in the atmosphere, fact.

I'm willing to compromise and admit that it might not be as bad as predicted. I do, above all, like to look at all the facts available before I make up my mind.

But sheer denial based on the opinions of journalists in centuries gone by does little to assuage my fears that maybe this time the human race has gone a bit too far. people tried to farm in Northern Ontario too. They starved.

It seems your denial is based primarily on ideology. Any attempt to mitigate climate disaster would effectively limit trade. I think you'd see Madison jump ship in a heartbeat when it came to saving the nation and the planet. But perhaps he'd rather die than submit to any limitation of trade and see the world burn if his particular ideology was not the one to triumph.
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#315666 - 09/20/19 12:50 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
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Anybody else participating in a climate action event today?

I was on a panel yesterday presenting on Things You Can Do to draw down atmospheric CO2. It was well attended and folks appreciated the presentations but I didnít get the feeling that anybody was motivated to actually do anything.

ďCultural entrenchment is strong among them, Obi-wan...Ē
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#315676 - 09/20/19 04:03 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
I'm just sitting here trying not to consume much of anything or use any energy whatsoever.
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#315678 - 09/20/19 06:10 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
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According to my evaluation spreadsheet, you are doing more than anyone else here to fight climate change. But make some noise about it!
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#315713 - 09/22/19 04:47 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Quote:
Anybody else participating in a climate action event today?


I didn't attend an event, but I actually did something. I fed 30.46 KWH of electricity into the grid today. So far my solar panels have supplied SDG&E with over 2.6 MegaWatt hours of electricity they didn't have to generate. Most of their generation uses natural gas. so it's equivalent to about 2600 pounds of CO2 not emitted.

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#315716 - 09/22/19 01:13 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
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I went to one of these in my town. It was really quite moving to be standing in a crowd of passionate young people who are truly aware and concerned about what is happening. The sad thing is that no one actually seems to know what to do, except protest and demonstrate. About half of the cars passing by honked in support. Maybe 10% scowled and made negative gestures.

(I recently took in a MAGA webinar called ďEvaluation of Crowd Size at RalliesĒ - using the Trump Totally Science-Free Method I came up with 30,000 demonstrators in the park and another million in a line stretching around the block waiting to get in. No one has ever seen anything like it.)
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#315718 - 09/22/19 02:27 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
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Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I didn't attend an event, but I actually did something. I fed 30.46 KWH of electricity into the grid today. So far my solar panels have supplied SDG&E with over 2.6 MegaWatt hours of electricity they didn't have to generate. Most of their generation uses natural gas. so it's equivalent to about 2600 pounds of CO2 not emitted.

Last night I cooked a chicken stuffed with sauerkraut on the charbecue. The process pyrolyzed 5 pounds of woody biomass and made 1.5# of sequesterable carbon. Doing the math that was a drawdown of 5.4 # of atmospheric CO2 and avoidance of about 5# of fossil fuel derived CO2 from not using propane. It also represented .00025 acre of forest fire fuels reduction. It also made $1.50 worth of a high value soil amendment that will save water and increase productivity in the garden.
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#316573 - 10/11/19 12:29 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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We passed a milestone yesterday, successfully making biochar feedstock pellets from juniper slash. You need to put your geek on to appreciate this - it has been a goal of mine for fifteen years to develop a complete system that will utilize ďliability biomassĒ and turn it into a valuable and useful product. I didnít have any doubt that it could be done, but itís a link in the system chain that has been missing.

You know the brush that fuels Californiaís chronic wildfires? That is now feedstock for an energy and biochar system that will draw down atmospheric CO2, save water, regenerate soils, create jobs, save energy, and make money.

We still have a long way to go to actually commercialize the system. The current version of capitalism that controls everything is geared to support new technologies with a lot of money backing them far more than it supports good ideas with a wide range of benefits.
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#316618 - 10/12/19 06:21 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Nebraska Forest Service To Hold Biochar Demonstration


link
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#316619 - 10/12/19 06:36 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Quote:
We still have a long way to go to actually commercialize the system.


Originally Posted By: Greger
Nebraska Forest Service To Hold Biochar Demonstration


coffee
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#316623 - 10/12/19 07:31 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Greger
I'm just sitting here trying not to consume much of anything or use any energy whatsoever.

I could put Rocksus on a treadmill with a Kong tennis ball in front of his face, and generate enough electricity to light-up the entire east coast seaboard. smile

..or just one light bulb. Hmm

smile
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#316629 - 10/12/19 09:46 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
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Originally Posted By: Greger
Nebraska Forest Service To Hold Biochar Demonstration


link

That behemoth has been "demonstrated" all over the country and no one wants it. It's basically an overhyped biomass disposal unit that creates more CO2 from the fossil fuel inputs than it saves in biochar - and it wastes all of the generated heat.

But you can own your own for a mere $600,000!
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#316631 - 10/12/19 11:09 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Florida needs these for hurricane debris removal
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#316634 - 10/12/19 11:59 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
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Originally Posted By: Greger
Florida needs these for hurricane debris removal

It's based on a device known as an "air curtain burner" that burns large quantities of biomass with very little smoke. They have modified it with a bunch of expensive add-ons that result in the capture of about 5% of the material as biochar.

Our system utilizes all of the heat and yields 30% biochar.
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#316635 - 10/13/19 12:16 AM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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It will do nothing to mitigate global warming.
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#316650 - 10/13/19 02:17 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
I think my point was that there is beginning to be a lot of interest in bio-char, The Nebraska Forest Service has expressed an interest in it and I suppose other states might be looking into it as well. The Great Plains Biochar Initiative looks like an interesting prospect and even if this particular piece of machinery is a fail there will be others, like yourself, creating other machines that won't fail.
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#316651 - 10/13/19 02:32 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
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Originally Posted By: Greger
I think my point was that there is beginning to be a lot of interest in bio-char, The Nebraska Forest Service has expressed an interest in it and I suppose other states might be looking into it as well. The Great Plains Biochar Initiative looks like an interesting prospect and even if this particular piece of machinery is a fail there will be others, like yourself, creating other machines that won't fail.

I'm in contact with the Nebraska Forest Service and we might have an opportunity to build a system for a large greenhouse operation there. They also have a large federal grant to investigate and certify the feeding of biochar to livestock. The supplier of the biochar they are using for that is in Wyoming and we are in discussions about building him a system to replace the one he is currently using.

Things are moving, but slowly. If I had the financial and PR backing that The Beast has, we'd be global by now.
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#316660 - 10/13/19 08:27 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Looks like the beast will likely end up rusting in a field, I wasn't tryin' to start a fight, this just popped up on my phone and was about bio-whatever....crazy
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#316662 - 10/13/19 08:47 PM Re: Global warming predictions [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
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Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Geez, I didn't think you wanted to fight. That might be kinda funny, though, two old codgers tripping over their shoelaces and huffing and puffing around in slow circles trying to remember "yo mama" insults......

rolleyes
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