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#31233 - 09/13/07 12:01 PM Re: Whose war is it? [Re: rporter314]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1068
 Originally Posted By: rporter314

 Quote:
Is my "serious problem with reading comprehension" because I don't have the same opinion on this as you do or is it because you are questioning my intelligence?

Your response was a non sequitur, I was forced to conclude you did not comprehend my statement.


No your reply to question my reading abilty was because I did not agree with you.
_________________________
May you always walk in beauty.
Just because I'm a conservative that doesn't mean I'm always right.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#31240 - 09/13/07 12:53 PM Re: Whose war is it? [Re: stereoman]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6285
Loc: Highlands, Tx

 Quote:
Re: the source of the transcript. Both the NY Times article and the Wiki entry on April Glaspie indicate that the Arab version was supplied by the Iraqi government, as I think the Senator had originally claimed.

Yes if you read the fine print at the top of the NYT transcription it says provided by Iraqi News Service. I also said that. What the Senator has maintained is that is the only source for the "green light" statement. The Senator also goes on to say Glaspie objected to the "lies" in that version. Note she did not object to the "green light" statement, she objected to the lack of the prefatory remarks which are in the cable. The Senator apparently thus believes the whole of the NYT transcription are lies as provided by Iraqi News which is not the case as the NYT transcription says essentially the same thing the cable says.

 Quote:
Re: the declassified Glaspie cable. I have read it thoroughly, rporter, and find no reference to the "no opinion" remark.

From US Embassy Bagdhad to Washington (Saddam's message of friendship to George Bush) [declassified 1998] we have my transcription of the cable which may be verified as accurate by reading the declassified cable itself.
 Quote:
30. Note: on the border question, Saddam referred to the 1961 agreement and a "line of Patrol" it had established. The Kuwaitis, he said, had told Mubarak Iraq was 20 kilometers "in front" of this line. The Ambassador said that she had served in Kuwait 20 years before; then, as now, we took no position on these Arab affairs.

She is apprising Washington what she said. The Senator denies this statement was ever said. But there it is as I have bolded it. The NYT transcription used the words Arab-Arab affair.

Historians in the aftermath of the Iraqi invasion have tried to figure out what happened. But as Glaspie noted she never would have thought Saddam would have invaded Kuwait, it becomes clear Saddam took the bolded statement to mean the US gave Iraq a "green light" to proceed with whatever they had in mind.

The dispute to which you refer is also very clear. On the one hand we have a statement interpreted out of context which can mean the US gave the "green light" to Saddam but in the context of the whole of Glaspies remarks the US position is quite clear and will not tolerate aggression. More concisely, don't be an aggressor - do whatever.
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ignorance is the enemy
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#31241 - 09/13/07 01:10 PM Re: Whose war is it? [Re: ]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6285
Loc: Highlands, Tx

 Quote:
by the way, I would never cite to Global Policy Forum as if it were an independent, reliable source, as it is an advocacy organization with a specific agenda

Please note I also posted an additional source as counterpoint and UN 688.
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ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#31245 - 09/13/07 01:37 PM Re: Whose war is it? [Re: rporter314]
stereoman Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/30/04
Posts: 15646
Loc: Asheville, NC
 Originally Posted By: rporter314
 Originally Posted By: me
Re: the declassified Glaspie cable. I have read it thoroughly, rporter, and find no reference to the "no opinion" remark.

From US Embassy Bagdhad to Washington (Saddam's message of friendship to George Bush) [declassified 1998] we have my transcription of the cable which may be verified as accurate by reading the declassified cable itself.
 Quote:
30. Note: on the border question, Saddam referred to the 1961 agreement and a "line of Patrol" it had established. The Kuwaitis, he said, had told Mubarak Iraq was 20 kilometers "in front" of this line. The Ambassador said that she had served in Kuwait 20 years before; then, as now, we took no position on these Arab affairs.

. . . But there it is as I have bolded it. The NYT transcription used the words Arab-Arab affair.

Thank you for assisting me with my reading comprehension, rporter.
_________________________
Steve
Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
to respect and be kind to one another,
so that we may grow with peace in mind.

(Native American prayer)


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#31370 - 09/14/07 04:32 AM Re: Whose war is it? [Re: rporter314]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1068
 Quote:
Wilson's and Akins' views on this question are in line with those of former Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz, who stated in a 1996 interview with Frontline that, prior to the invasion of Kuwait, Iraq "had no illusions" about the likelihood of U.S. military intervention. Similarly, in a 2000 Frontline interview, Aziz declared, "There were no mixed signals", and further elaborated:

...it was a routine meeting. ... She didn't say anything extraordinary beyond what any professional diplomat would say without previous instructions from his government. She did not ask for an audience with the president [Saddam]. She was summoned by the president. ... She was not prepared.... People in Washington were asleep, so she needed a half-hour to contact anybody in Washington and seek instructions. So, what she said were routine, classical comments on what the president was asking her to convey to President Bush.[5]

The Deputy Prime Minister of Iraq understood what Amb. Glaspie said. As the portion in that I put in bold print shows Tariq Aziz knew that the chances of military intervention were very good. If the Deputy Foreign Minister of Iraq knew that the US was more than likely to intervene militarily why can't people here on the CHB/RR take his word for it? He was there. When one of the people who started the lie later admit to the fact that it was a lie that is good enough for me.
_________________________
May you always walk in beauty.
Just because I'm a conservative that doesn't mean I'm always right.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#31372 - 09/14/07 04:43 AM Re: Whose war is it? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15683
I'm with Senator on this point - There is no way that the Iraqis believed that we would simply look the other way and allow an invasion of Kuwait without some kind of a response. I believe that they thought it would not be substantial enough when all of the Republican Guard was already ensconced in Kuwait. They were looking at Beirut. The rest was just propaganda - have we forgotten how formidable the Baathist spin machine was?
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#31377 - 09/14/07 05:48 AM Re: Whose war is it? [Re: ]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
I am sure, as well, the Iraq knew it would not be allowed to invade Kuwait with impunity. My camment earlier about inept was centered on my expectation that even without coaching a diplomat in that situation should not have said anything that could later be spun as it was. That is all. I cannot beleive she or our government would ever greenlight such an invasion.
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#31379 - 09/14/07 05:58 AM Re: Whose war is it? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Okay. Surely there has been enough time to arrive at an answer. So, whose war is it?

Let me help. Who elected to invade Iraq with the intention of over-throwing its government and occupying its territory?

There is only one answer. All others are attempts at rationalization. This particular excuse (it has been one continuous war since tossing Iraqis out of Kuwait) began along with the others after it was becoming apparent to the war whistlers and Bush worshippers that their old justifications did not -- and for most thinking persons never did -- hold water.

Gotta love 'em though for consistency. The morning after the 2006 elections the Hannitys and the Limbaughs and other Republican mouthpieces of sqauwk radio were already tripping over themselves to give the war to the "defeatocrats" who were responsible for helping lose the war by lending "aid and comfort" to the enemy. Of course, freaking corrupt old-guard pols like Pelosi and Reid, lusting for a nose-dive into the ol' taxpayer-funded goodies trough made and are making that an easier sell than it should have been, but then what can you expect from party politics. Popcorn, anyone?:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
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#31401 - 09/14/07 11:02 AM Re: Whose war is it? [Re: issodhos]
Fermi paradox Offline


Registered: 07/04/05
Posts: 6235
Loc: Miami
I agree with the Senator and NW Ponderer. The Kuwait situation was brilliantly handled by the Poppy Bush Administration before the Iraqi invasion. There's just no evidence to support any other conclusion. Steve, you need to focus better and learn to recognize a slam-dunk when you see it.

Sheesh
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#31402 - 09/14/07 11:17 AM Re: Whose war is it? [Re: issodhos]
stereoman Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/30/04
Posts: 15646
Loc: Asheville, NC
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
There is only one answer. All others are attempts at rationalization.

I disagree. I don't think for a minute that the current Administration would have been nearly as eager to invade had the Iraqi military not been decimated by the two previous Administrations. I also think the UN inspections would by Jan 2001 have concluded that Iraq did not possess any stockpiles of WMD's, had Clinton not forced their evacuation in advance of the 1998 bombing of Baghdad.

Furthermore, I think this thread has been very helpful in demonstrating just how widespread errors and fallacies must be in order to create a debacle such as the one in which we are now mired in Iraq. It seems to me that the information posted here amply demonstrates that egregious errors were made by:
  • Saddam, whose narcissistic blindness led him to believe he could act with impunity
  • Ambassador Glaspie, who squandered the most immediate opportunity to discourage an act of war on Iraq's part
  • The first Bush Administration, for its gleeful pursuit of a military rather than diplomatic remedy
  • The Clinton Administration, for advocating and implementing inhumane sanctions and perpetuating a low-level military conflict, culminating in the ill-advise Operation Desert Fox
  • The Project for a New American Century, for exerting its very substantial influence in both the Clinton and the second Bush Administration
  • The Democratic Party, for its failure to recognize and address the warlike intentions of George W. Bush and his coterie of PNAC signatories
  • George W. Bush, for a litany of reasons too lengthy to describe in this post
_________________________
Steve
Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
to respect and be kind to one another,
so that we may grow with peace in mind.

(Native American prayer)


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