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#313994 - 08/19/19 05:48 PM Re: College debt [Re: Mellowicious]
Mellowicious Offline

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 9624
Loc: flyover country
Absolutely, It. Unfortunately there are a lot of parents out there who are dumber than a first calf heifer, don’t know how to do any of the research because their children are first-generation college kids, have never lived without debt themselves, or have informally emancipated their kid (“if you need the money, then borrow it, but you’re the one who has to pay it back.”)

Or the college choice has been wisely made bug the only way to complete the financing is to borrow.
Long time passing

#314059 - 08/21/19 07:09 PM Re: College debt [Re: Mellowicious]
jgw Offline

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3246
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I consider college debt problem to be two tiered.
The first problem tier is where students borrowed money to get educated by a for profit outfit that offers, not doesn't actually educate.
The second, is the borrowing itself. We are talking about kids who, obviously, are a clue and don't understand debt or responsibility.

The first is currently supported by the Trump administration. There used to be congressional report listing the bad actors but that has gone up in smoke. These people are well and truly screwed as they signed the contract. The second has to do with borrowing the money. My kids are growed up I don't have to deal with this one but I have grandkids who have borrowed but not much and its was easily dealt with. When they graduated from college they had already completed their first 2 years at the local college (free, whilst attending high school. This is offered in our schools). However, there are also kids that goto college, are not rich, and major in English or History, borrow 100,000.00 to get through and are saddled with a debt they will have to live with for the rest of their lives due, basically, to our current laws dealing with this stuff.

I had a heart specialist who was married to another heart specialist from Canada. She had debt, he didn't because he did public service, in Canada, to take care of the cost. Anyway, this couple decided to go after her debt and saved 100,000.00 as the first payment. She had been in practice for a couple of years. That 100,000.00 didn't even deal with the interest! A couple of years afterwards they both moved to Canada, are both practicing, and she now ignores the debt.

College debt, overall, is a scourge on an entire generation. I have mixed feelings about the second group but not the first who should be able to get their money back. Obama thought so as well but not the Trump administration. The second is a bit different. I wonder, for instance, just how much these kids were schooled about the debt, etc. before they signed or they just figured it was free money and they were going to get rich quick and pay it all back. I think this boils down to a genuine lack of oversight by anybody either lender or parents. I wonder, when these kids left high school did anybody talk to them and explain it to them? Up here the high school no longer bothers with home ec (how to boil and egg), civics, etc. I suspect the subject of borrowing money never even came up.

I incidentally, would support a system that supported higher education in subjects deemed important for society. Grades must be maintained and payback would be by some kind of government service (to be decided) after graduation. I am told that this actually exists for some stuff but I have been told its a kindofa mystery.


#314060 - 08/21/19 07:49 PM Re: College debt [Re: Mellowicious]
Ujest Shurly Offline

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 627
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
The real nightmare and usury is the student has to take out a new loan every semester, they are told they do not have to pay anything back until they graduate. May not be informed the interest will accumulate and compound until they start paying the loan back. So the student upon graduation is saddled with 8 or more separate loans each with a separate interest rate.
Vote 2020!

Life is like a PB&J sandwich. The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

#314061 - 08/21/19 08:53 PM Re: College debt [Re: Mellowicious]
Mellowicious Offline

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 9624
Loc: flyover country
JGW used the phrase “subjects deemed important to society,” that’s a thought that’s been troubling me throughout this thread, including in my own posts. Our society is so monetized - I would hate to see education funded only for the lucrative subjects.

Because we need foresters, and orchestra conductors, Faulkner experts, political science teachers, archeologists, and high school biology teachers.

Shout out to Bernie; the only way I can see out of it is for government schools - from grade to highest degree- to be tuition-free.

In short - deemed important by whom?
Long time passing

#314103 - 08/23/19 05:18 PM Re: College debt [Re: Mellowicious]
jgw Offline

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3246
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I actually agree - we need them all. But borrowing 100,000.00 to be a historian doesn't seem to be a real good idea. I am not really sure what happened. I went to college on the GI Bill and it covered most of my expenses. I also worked and had summer jobs to fill it all in. I don't think that is possible anymore.

Anyway, what happened needs to be fixed not unlike a whole bunch of other stuff - infrastructure, healthcare, (list is long). I have no idea how to get that done.

#314109 - 08/23/19 07:20 PM Re: College debt [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16859
Loc: Florida
See...the deal is that a student who wants to become a historian...

SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BORROW $100,000!!!!!!!
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

#314111 - 08/23/19 08:28 PM Re: College debt [Re: Mellowicious]
pondering_it_all Offline

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9844
Loc: North San Diego County
I agree with Julia: Government schools - from Kindergarten to highest degree need to be tuition-free. And they need support for poor students like free text books on line, and free dorms with a meal plan. A student with no assets should be able to become a productive member of society, at whatever level of education they can reach. That is the American Dream, more than anything else. That doesn't mean they need to have 20 year PhD programs for the feeble-minded.

Ivies should be for rich kids. State schools should be merit-based. Eventually, a state school diploma could actually be more impressive than an Ivy, because the student had to actually work hard for it. I think Trump has done more to damage the prestige of Wharton than anything else!

#314115 - 08/23/19 09:53 PM Re: College debt [Re: pondering_it_all]
itstarted Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 6428
Loc: Florida/Illinois
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Eventually, a state school diploma could actually be more impressive than an Ivy, because the student had to actually work hard for it.


Life is Good!

#314310 - 08/27/19 06:56 PM Re: College debt [Re: Mellowicious]
jgw Offline

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3246
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
There is an ongoing fact - when money is tight gov tends to start cutting expenses with social stuff. That have blamed, for instance, in 1948 there was a movie called "the Snakepit". The results were, initially, a reformation of our mental health system. Within 10 years that reformation began with a closing of insane asylums in favor of community mental health. The problem is that few communities took it on and even fewer funded them. Schools too feel the pinch in tight times. Much of this has to do with 'privatization' where everybody gets to pay and them that can't ......... We, basically, take care of roads better than social stuff. Now, however, we now also have 18 year long wars for 3/4 billion a month to pay for and an army upon which we spend more than the next 5 richest countries in the world. Have mental problems? - work it out. Have serious mental problems? - time to goto prison. Have failing schools? Get rich or pray a lot. Want to be a doctor? Cuba for your education. Want to be a pharmacist? Russia has a nice program you can afford. Can't afford to get a phd? China can do it cheaper. There are solutions - they are just not here.

In other worlds it seems that we have moved our attention to stuff that has little to do with the taxpayers and much to do with the very rich and the will of a self serving elected class that has, obviously, forgotten them that brought them to the party. The truly peculiar thing is that them that brought them to the party seems to be happy with this situation - right up to the point when they start blowing up each other in an effort to "change" stuff. I suspect that history has probably documented this a few times before? The current solutions seem to be to talk everything to death and do absolutely nothing about it because, again obviously, its just too much trouble.......

Edited by jgw (08/27/19 06:59 PM)

#319353 - 12/28/19 04:04 AM Re: College debt [Re: Mellowicious]
CPWILL Offline

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 353
Originally Posted By: Mellowicious
My own feelings are all over the place on this one.

Many students are borrowing so much in student loans that they are saddled with a debt that they'll always be paying, but never pay off. And frankly, they whine about it - perhaps reasonably, perhaps not?

Is this happening because
  • Colleges and universities charge too much
  • Students are making bad decisions about where to go and how much to borrow
  • Students, parents, and employers over-value degrees and institutions?

Students (more accurately, graduates) are screaming for debt relief - should they get it?

* Our society has increased the extent to which we depend upon credentialing as a stand-in for demonstrated experience and capability.

* Our education system is taught by people with - somewhat useless - Master's Degrees. The pathway every one of them know to "success" is advanced education. That, therefore, is the pathway they try to chart for their students.

Both of these increase demand for college education, and the expectation that each student should strive for it.

* Federally ensured loans exacerbate this, encouraging an increase in demand for college (which increases price) at the same time that it makes purchasers (students) unresponsive to price (because the costs will be borne in the far-off future which, every 18 year old is certain, is, like, really far away, and, stuff).

Ergo, there isn't much price pressure on Colleges, but there is a lot of competition to capture an oversized student body and the federal funds that come with them. That means that colleges have emphasized the kinds of things that appeal to 18 year olds - fantastic sports teams, fun events and structures, greek life, cool campuses - who are price insensitive. Those things are all expensive, driving the (eventual) price higher and higher in a self-feeding cycle.

*Some* young people are screaming for debt relief. These are disproportionately people with advanced degrees, however, meaning that a public-debt-relief effort would represent a transfer of wealth from (generally) the broader populace to those who are more representative of the educated upper classes.

Not entirely, however. Younger generations are not wrong to point out that older generations grossly misled them when those elders encouraged them to take out massive student loans for degrees with increasingly lower payoffs. They are not wrong to say that state and federal policy as well as societal expectations steered them wrong, and that they are the ones left holding the burden. BUT, if student loans are so bad, well, why do we keep giving them out? Why would we WANT to burden another rising generation of students, if they are so terrible?

I think the following compromise addresses (though incompletely) both right and left wing concerns on the issue:

1. Allow anyone to re-finance current student loans at federal rates that match the rates we lend to banks (Left Wing Idea)
2. Immediately cease issuing new federal student loans (Right Wing Idea)
3. Make all student loans bankruptable after 10 years (so it dovetails with point 4, below) (no one has really pitched this, AFAIK).
4. Forgive the student loans put under the federal rates after 10 years of payments, not having missed payments (ie: Deferment time doesn't count) (Left Wing Idea with Right Wing Modification)
Winter Is Coming

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