Current Topics
RoundTable for Summer 2020
by pdx rick
06:23 AM
What is wealth? How is it made? How is it accounted?
by logtroll
12:44 AM
Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2
by pondering_it_all
08:12 PM
Drug prices
by pondering_it_all
08:02 PM
Coronavirus: The Plague of The 21st Century?
by jgw
07:51 PM
These are, apparently, college kids?
by pondering_it_all
07:50 PM
Russia Secretly Offered Afghan Militants Bounties to Kill U.S. Troops, US Intel
by jgw
07:46 PM
State Voters and Covid-19
by jgw
07:39 PM
Is it too soon to be talking 2020?
by Irked
07/01/20 01:06 AM
Decisions
by jgw
06/29/20 05:38 PM
What is the purpose of Capitalism?
by pdx rick
06/29/20 04:52 AM
Attorney to testify DOJ gave Roger Stone favorable treatment
by jgw
06/28/20 05:48 PM
The Boogaloo Bois
by Greger
06/28/20 05:02 PM
kickass Facts
by jgw
06/27/20 06:58 PM
Donald Trump - The Greatest President
by jgw
06/27/20 05:26 PM
The Maximum Wage
by pondering_it_all
06/26/20 09:00 PM
Trying
by pondering_it_all
06/25/20 07:54 PM
Productivity
by jgw
06/25/20 06:49 PM
Rhode Island moves to change state's official name due to slavery connotations
by pondering_it_all
06/24/20 10:19 PM
seattle - capital hill autonomous zone
by jgw
06/23/20 07:26 PM
Forum Stats
6292 Members
60 Forums
16952 Topics
300982 Posts

Max Online: 294 @ 12/06/17 12:57 AM
Google Adsense
Page 4 of 10 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 9 10 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#314214 - 08/26/19 12:31 AM Re: Good bye? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
No amount of money we put into a lockbox will EVER go to paying down debt.

Lockbox? Our government does not and never has put a dime in any lockbox! All of the money our government collects in taxes is spent long before it gets it!
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
To be fair I've been making this same argument for years.

And you've been wrong for years if you believe that our government ever had a lockbox! Our government spends about $2 for every $1 it collects in taxes.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#314216 - 08/26/19 12:36 AM Re: Good bye? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10246
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
http://www.usadebtclock.com/
Medicare is currently a $79,000,000,000,000.00+ unfunded liability. Our current on the books debt is $22,000,000,000,000+. Our entire country the land, and the wealth of everyone in it is $22,000,000,000,000. So if we were to sell the entire USA of and tax everyone in it at a rate of 100% we could only pay off our current debt. There would be absolutely nothing left to pay the unfunded liability of Medicare.

Okay... so why are Republicans so excited to cut taxes, when it is clear that the revenues are already egregiously short?

And why is the amount of current private healthcare expenditures that would be displaced by a tax funded healthcare system always externalized?

We all agree that the cost of healthcare is too high. How it's paid for is not really the question, it's how can it cost less and deliver an optimal result that counts.

Nobody seems to be inclined to honesty about the math in these things...

Hatrack?
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

Top
#314239 - 08/26/19 02:33 AM Re: Good bye? [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
http://www.usadebtclock.com/
Medicare is currently a $79,000,000,000,000.00+ unfunded liability. Our current on the books debt is $22,000,000,000,000+. Our entire country the land, and the wealth of everyone in it is $22,000,000,000,000. So if we were to sell the entire USA of and tax everyone in it at a rate of 100% we could only pay off our current debt. There would be absolutely nothing left to pay the unfunded liability of Medicare.

Okay... so why are Republicans so excited to cut taxes, when it is clear that the revenues are already egregiously short?

And why is the amount of current private healthcare expenditures that would be displaced by a tax funded healthcare system always externalized?

We all agree that the cost of healthcare is too high. How it's paid for is not really the question, it's how can it cost less and deliver an optimal result that counts.

Nobody seems to be inclined to honesty about the math in these things...

Hatrack?

Because when taxes are cut the revenue to our government increases. Our government cannot create wealth, it can only tax it. Our government doesn't have the revenue to fund Medicare so the idea of a tax funded healthcare system has already been proven to be a solution that does not work! How many times does that FACT have to be repeated before people understand it?

The reason the cost of healthcare is too high is due to many factors. The primary factor is government interference in the private sector with a wage freeze shortly after WWII. Expecting our government to fix a problem it created is like expecting that no one will ever tell a lie again.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#314240 - 08/26/19 02:47 AM Re: Good bye? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10246
Loc: One of the Mexicos
WHOA! Can’t argue with that... it would be crazy to try.

Now how about the question of externaliztion?
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

Top
#314289 - 08/27/19 04:54 AM Re: Good bye? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17398
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: Greger
The simplest route to universal healthcare is expanding and changing our Medicare and Medicaid programs.

Yes, let's extend Medicare to everyone. What a great idea!
Originally Posted By: Greger
Senator, these are workable solutions, within constitutional parameters, and can be funded without difficulty.

http://www.usadebtclock.com/
Medicare is currently a $79,000,000,000,000.00+ unfunded liability. Our current on the books debt is $22,000,000,000,000+. Our entire country the land, and the wealth of everyone in it is $22,000,000,000,000. So if we were to sell the entire USA of and tax everyone in it at a rate of 100% we could only pay off our current debt. There would be absolutely nothing left to pay the unfunded liability of Medicare. So NO extending Medicare to everyone is NOT possible!

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Conservatism is a breeding ground of anti-intellectualism, it’s a sin to be smart.

Do you ever do any research pdx rick? This conservative does and my research has repeatedly shown you to be wrong. The facts I have just posted to refute Greger's comments show that what he claims is not and cannot happen.
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Two notes here that I think are very important. First, while that quote of James Madison is correct, it was a) not the last word on the subject (in fact, he lost the argument to Hamilton, who "argued for a broad interpretation which viewed spending as an enumerated power Congress could exercise independently to benefit the general welfare.

Madison wrote the general Welfare clause, therefore it is his comments on it should be how it is interpreted. That the Butler decision chose to use Hamilton's opinion of it and not what Madison intended it to be makes the decision of questionable Constitutional validity. The Butler decision was made during the New Deal which when FDR ignored our Constitution.
That, my friend, is an ideologue's conclusion, not a valid argument. "I disagree, therefore, you are wrong." Not exactly how discussion proceeds.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#314290 - 08/27/19 05:00 AM Re: Good bye? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17398
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: Greger
The simplest route to universal healthcare is expanding and changing our Medicare and Medicaid programs.

Yes, let's extend Medicare to everyone. What a great idea!
Originally Posted By: Greger
Senator, these are workable solutions, within constitutional parameters, and can be funded without difficulty.

http://www.usadebtclock.com/
Medicare is currently a $79,000,000,000,000.00+ unfunded liability. Our current on the books debt is $22,000,000,000,000+. Our entire country the land, and the wealth of everyone in it is $22,000,000,000,000. So if we were to sell the entire USA of and tax everyone in it at a rate of 100% we could only pay off our current debt. There would be absolutely nothing left to pay the unfunded liability of Medicare. So NO extending Medicare to everyone is NOT possible!
The fundamental flaw in this argument is consistent with the logical flaw in most conservative arguments. I can refute it in 30 seconds (time me): when you bought your house, did you buy it outright, or did you take out a mortgage? Debt is something repaid over time. Your argument ignores that obvious fact, and is, therefore, invalid.

Top
#314291 - 08/27/19 05:07 AM Re: Good bye? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9965
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
Because when taxes are cut the revenue to our government increases.


Even Laffer said this is true only when the top tax rates are high. It does not work when tax rates are low. It's "the Laffer Curve" not the Laffer Straight Line! Most economists have figured out the optimal maximum tax rate for maximal government revenue is about 70%. We are way lower that that now, so lowering tax rates will only lower government revenue and increase the deficit.

Laffer Curve (Wikipedia)

Top
#314293 - 08/27/19 05:20 AM Re: Good bye? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17398
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Because when taxes are cut the revenue to our government increases.
That is not now, nor has it ever been, true. That, my friend, is what is called "fraud". It is fraud of long and storied history. Have you ever heard of the "Laffer curve" (which I refer to as the "laughable curve")? We have been at the low end of that "curve" for nearly all of our national history, so it has never been functionally accurate. At best, a tax cut will return about 28% in revenues. Even the tax foundation, a rah- rah proponent of tax cuts, acknowledges that "[the TCJA] will reduce federal revenues by $1.47 trillion on a conventional basis and $448 billion on a dynamic basis over the 10-year budget window."

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Our government cannot create wealth, it can only tax it.
Again, laughably untrue. Do you know how treasuries work?
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Our government doesn't have the revenue to fund Medicare so the idea of a tax funded healthcare system has already been proven to be a solution that does not work! How many times does that FACT have to be repeated before people understand it?
Repeating something that is demonstrably false does not make it "a fact", no matter how often you make the same claim. That only works in "conservaworld."

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The reason the cost of healthcare is too high is due to many factors. The primary factor is government interference in the private sector with a wage freeze shortly after WWII. Expecting our government to fix a problem it created is like expecting that no one will ever tell a lie again.
Again, a repetitive fantasy based upon a falsehood. I'd ask where you get these bizarre ideas, but I don't really care.

Top
#314295 - 08/27/19 06:05 AM Re: Good bye? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9965
Loc: North San Diego County
I am participating in a massive fraud myself, and it's a big part of the expense of our health care system compared to most other countries. I have to take an MS drug that cost over $70,000 per year and costs the drug company less than $100 per year to make. There are other MS drugs I could take from other drug companies. Just by coincidence, they all happen to cost $70,000 or slightly more per year! Of course, I don't pay that myself. I used to top out and pay about $2500 per year when I was employed and had group coverage. I now pay about $6000 per year with Medicare Part D. The difference is paid by insurance companies or Medicare.

It's our patent system that lets drug companies siphon off huge amount from the insurance companies and Medicare. The drug company has a patent for the drug's time release mechanism for use in MS, although the drug has been around for about 60 years and was once used to preserve leather couches! It was used for decades in treating another autoimmune disease, psoriasis, but the generic psoriasis sufferers have used is being supplanted by this drug through patent cases, raising their costs immensely.

Want to stop the flow of huge amounts of cash into drug companies? Fix the patent system! Only let them charge royalties of 10 times the cost to make the drug. Or even 100 times. And dump the exclusivity rule. There would be dirt-cheap generics for me and every other patient who needs the drugs these companies are using to soak our medical system.

Top
#314298 - 08/27/19 02:35 PM Re: Good bye? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
No amount of money we put into a lockbox will EVER go to paying down debt.

Lockbox? Our government does not and never has put a dime in any lockbox! All of the money our government collects in taxes is spent long before it gets it!
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
To be fair I've been making this same argument for years.

And you've been wrong for years if you believe that our government ever had a lockbox! Our government spends about $2 for every $1 it collects in taxes.


You don't seem to get the point I am making.
Austerity and screeching about the need to provision "unfunded liabilities" IS the "lockbox" because when you tie up trillions of dollars, that is the lockbox

Have you ever heard of the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act?
This law, which some have referred to as "the most insane law Congress ever passed", requires the Postal Service, which receives no taxpayer subsidies, to prefund its retirees' health benefits up to the year 2056. This is a $5 billion per year cost; it is a requirement that no other entity, private or public, has to make.
It is a manufactured crisis.
It IS A LOCKBOX, and what do you THINK will happen to the over fifty billion dollars ransomed from the Post Office by the time 2056 rolls around?
I bet you ANYTHING that money will be raided and used for something else.
That is because there is no such thing as an ACTUAL lockbox, except in the mind of every person who talks about unfunded liabilities.

_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

Top
Page 4 of 10 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 9 10 >

Who's Online
0 registered (), 21 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Superfly, GreatNewsTonight, danarhea, RoughDraft274, CPWILL
6292 Registered Users
A2