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#314453 - 08/29/19 02:19 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10369
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The bread lines of the Great Depression are an anomaly in the history of capitalism.
Only in that in previous cycles the destitute were just left to starve. The point you so assiduously miss is that bread lines are not a product of socialism. They are more often a product of the business cycle.

Ironically, the bread lines noted are a socialist response to mitigate a failure of Capitalism. The climate crisis and a multitude of environmental disasters are also failures of Capitalism. And Capitalists are obstructing social efforts to fix the problems.

Classical Liberalism offers up nice and neat theories about how free markets are the cat’s pajamas, but they do not stand up well in the real world.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#314454 - 08/29/19 02:32 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17309
Loc: Florida
Perhaps the senator hasn't heard of food banks or SNAP? Our modern version of bread lines.

Because the hungry have become too numerous for simple soup kitchens.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#314455 - 08/29/19 02:33 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17430
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: logroll

Yo, Hatrack! Now that you are back, how's about tendering an opinion on externalization?

Externalization? Until you brought this BS line of thinking I have never externalized anything. It is like deconstructing something another method of obfuscating what is being discussed.
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
... Then the idea of "externalizing" the cost of the environmental disaster you mentioned is BS.
My friend, "externalization" is one of the most important and discussed topics in macroeconomics, yet you dismiss it with a handwave. That's like discussing "monuments" but asserting that "man- made structures" don't count. In a previous post I provided a short definition and link to keep the discussion on track. You have spent some time discussing "externalities" without using the term: taxes and tariffs are externalities, too; as is that "prosperity" you keep going on about. Environmental impacts are just one form of externality.

Most government policy focuses on addressing external factors to the market and business enterprises, generally: tax cuts, carbon taxes, environmental regulation, regulatory reform, local tax benefits, fair labor standards. Those are all efforts to address externalities in a capitalist (or any other economic) system.

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#314468 - 08/30/19 12:56 AM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10369
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Oh, yeah, baby... what he said!
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#314472 - 08/30/19 11:18 AM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

Most government policy focuses on addressing external factors to the market and business enterprises, generally: tax cuts, carbon taxes, environmental regulation, regulatory reform, local tax benefits, fair labor standards. Those are all efforts to address externalities in a capitalist (or any other economic) system.


It sounds as though government's primary concern is being the handmaiden to capitalism. I wonder how that's working out....

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#314474 - 08/30/19 03:43 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17430
Maybe you missed the parenthetical? "(or any other economic) system"
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#314477 - 08/30/19 10:45 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: chunkstyle]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10369
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
It sounds as though government's primary concern is being the handmaiden to capitalism. I wonder how that's working out....

That might be quite a narrow viewpoint, though true in many instances. But my concern is more where the government manages to impose regulations intended to reduce or eliminate negative externalities - this is where much of the contention between the left and the right occurs, with one side wanting to escape their reasonable responsibilities (for more short-term profits) and the other wanting more protections for society and the environment.

It is beyond belief that Senator Hatrack doesn't seem to have a shred of understanding about externalization of costs, as it is a primary interest of unethical businesspeople (mostly Conservatives in my observation...)

_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#314493 - 08/31/19 03:17 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17430
Sadly, it appears we will get no more retorts from SenHat. It is devilishly hard to keep conservative voices here anymore. What I have been hoping for is some serious conservative poster that can make points based upon a reasonable analysis of evidence. I used to play that role occasionally, but I have lost my passion for doing so, given the damage to American values "conservative" ideas have wrought throughout our history. Friend chunk needs a foil!

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#314527 - 08/31/19 10:49 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Sadly, it appears we will get no more retorts from SenHat. It is devilishly hard to keep conservative voices here anymore. What I have been hoping for is some serious conservative poster that can make points based upon a reasonable analysis of evidence. I used to play that role occasionally, but I have lost my passion for doing so, given the damage to American values "conservative" ideas have wrought throughout our history. Friend chunk needs a foil!


Don't expect me to say "Stop being such mean girls to the Cons" because in the end this is a marketplace of ideas, and sound ideas sell, and unsound ideas don't sell.

And by "sell" I don't mean they make people change their minds, I mean people respect sound ideas even if they don't agree.

I will continue to try to lure more Cons here but they're going to have to be able to take the heat just like anyone else does.
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#314529 - 08/31/19 11:10 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
To sell an idea what works best is to present it by not talking down to the person you are presenting it to. Very few of the liberals here do that. They have a tendency to lecture people in their belief that what they believe is what everyone believes. That is definitely not true. Many of the replies I have received here have been condescending lectures that could not sell a glass of water to man on the Mohave desert.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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