This why I started the topic "Closed-Mind Armwrestle". Hatrack isn't wrong, but he is doing exactly what he is condemning. How do we get past that to real discussions?

The true 'sacred' cornerstone of RR is the ability to discuss topics with integrity, facts, and civility. It may even be more important than the sanctity of the Roundtable.

There are opinions and then there are facts. Everybody is entitled to their own opinions. but not to their own facts. Statements like "Trump has never lied" are just pure denial of facts, not opinion. The problem (at least for most conservatives) is that most of the people here at RR are very educated, and very smart, so they have no problem seeing through opinions stated as facts.

I like to use factual arguments, but I'm not at all close-minded. I have lots of conservative friends and we get along just fine. I also have clearly insane relatives and friends. Facts don't matter to them, but facts have a way of catching up with you and biting you in the ass.

I have supported a lot of conservative ideas throughout my life. For example, I have never sided with the USSR or Russia on much of anything. I have never "been in love" with the leadership of North Korea. I know our intelligence agencies have done some bad things, but I have never taken Putin's positions over their's. I have never believed that it's smart or okay to cheat on your taxes, peep at under-aged (or any) girls in a dressing room, hire prostitutes, cheat on your wife, or grab women by the pussy just because you hold some power over them.

Do none of these things matter to conservatives anymore? Or are "conservatives" not really conservative anymore?

I am guilty of what I have condemned. But compared to those with whom I've had discussions it is like comparing a gang of teenagers with the Mafia.

True senator, how can we get around this impasse?

I paid good money to learn all the big words I know. I'll try to be better.

I am very passionate about my beliefs, and opinionated to boot (just ask my son). But, that doesn't mean I'm close-minded. Those of you who have been here a long time have seem my mind change. (Ahem, not like that! ). I'm persuadable.

Indeed, many of my views are quite "conservative": rah-rah patriotism, mom, Apple pie, the flag, individual rights, limited government, oaths mean something, capitalism is useful, but so is social awareness, etc. My take, however, may be different than others. Government is limited by substance, not size. Equal opportunity is a fundamental right, and that includes marriage, living openly, and personal body integrity. You have a right to your opinion, no matter how wrong it is, but not to impose it on others. To be persuaded requires respect, not insults, and facts, not opinions.

Now that I've ranted, though, maybe this belongs in that other thread...

Try looking in the mirror. I did.

NW Ponderer, a Classical Liberal believes that our government should limited in both substance and size.

...and they're worth every penny, spent.

I hate to sound like a broken record.

...but...

Words change meaning over time. Go with the flow...mang. It's all good.