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#315696 - 09/21/19 11:31 PM Re: RoundTable for Fall 2019 [Re: pdx rick]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

There really is no need for civilians to have military-grade guns. Hmm
The II Amendment is one of the Bill of RIGHTS not the bill of needs. The purpose of right to keep and bear arms is to prevent our government from taking away an individuals right to protect themselves. While an AR-15 is an inappropriate weapon in this situation once our government bans the ownership of an AR-15 what is to stop it from taking other types of guns? Nothing! If the victim in this situation had had a gun he would not have been assaulted. If he has an AR-15 at home his home would be safe.

Why we have the II Amendment

Colt said it will suspend making AR-15's but eventually will start making them again.

Quote:
"The fact of the matter is that over the last few years, the market for modern sporting rifles has experienced significant excess manufacturing capacity," Colt Defense LLC president and CEO Dennis Veilleux said in a statement Thursday. "Given this level of manufacturing capacity, we believe there is adequate supply for modern sporting rifles for the foreseeable future."

The law of supply and demand in action is why Colt has temporarily stopped making the AR-15.

Kind sir, as you may recall from high school civics class, the 2A only addresses militias. It was only when Scalia the Conservative "Originalist" SCOTUS member legislated from the bench did "militias" become individuals like the lying conniving sociopath that Scalia was.

Therefore, from an true Originalist perspective, individuals do not have the right to own guns, but their militia does.

I hope this clarification helps. smile


Read the book Origins of the Bill of Rights, chapter 6, by Leonard W. Levy (Yale University Press copyright 1999). In that chapter Professor Levy explains how the II Amendment is an individual right. The book was written before Justice Scalia was on the Supreme Court and it clarifies the real originalist meaning of the II Amendment.
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#315697 - 09/21/19 11:56 PM Re: RoundTable for Fall 2019 [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Read the book Origins of the Bill of Rights, chapter 6, by Leonard W. Levy (Yale University Press copyright 1999). In that chapter Professor Levy explains how the II Amendment is an individual right.

You're gonna have to sell your case a little better before you persuade me to go hunt down and buy an out of print book to read chapter 6 just to find out if yer blowing smoke up my ass again! LOL

Funny guy!
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#315698 - 09/22/19 12:34 AM Re: RoundTable for Fall 2019 [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
_________________________
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#315700 - 09/22/19 12:46 AM Re: RoundTable for Fall 2019 [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42989
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Read the book Origins of the Bill of Rights, chapter 6, by Leonard W. Levy (Yale University Press copyright 1999). In that chapter Professor Levy explains how the II Amendment is an individual right. The book was written before Justice Scalia was on the Supreme Court and it clarifies the real originalist meaning of the II Amendment.

While some guy named Leonard wrote a book, Scalia as one of the nine SCOTUS judges affects every American's life.

In this case, Scalia gave permission for individuals to own guns, and the NRA promoted ownership of killing machines that can cause mass inflection of damage in the shortest amount of time.

Hmm
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#315702 - 09/22/19 12:58 AM Re: RoundTable for Fall 2019 [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
_________________________
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#315703 - 09/22/19 01:02 AM Re: RoundTable for Fall 2019 [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Uh ohh, cracks are beginning to form around the celebrated-very nearly coronated front runner...

Liz Warren has edged past Joe Biden in the Des Moines Register/CNN poll.
The poll is considered a local gold standard, and everyone recognizes the critical and strategic importance of Iowa in POTUS electoral politics.

Elizabeth Warren edges out Joe Biden for lead in Des Moines Register Iowa poll

Quote:
The last Register/CNN poll, in June, had Biden leading with 24 percent and Warren in the third spot at 15 percent, slightly behind Bernie Sanders, who came in second with 16 percent support.
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#315705 - 09/22/19 02:35 AM Re: RoundTable for Fall 2019 [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42989
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Liz Warren has edged past Joe Biden in the Des Moines Register/CNN poll.

The poll is considered a local gold standard, and everyone recognizes the critical and strategic importance of Iowa in POTUS electoral politics.

I love Lizzy - I really, really do. But if it's her and Trump, I'm afraid Trump will have a 2nd term.

frown
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#315706 - 09/22/19 02:50 AM Re: RoundTable for Fall 2019 [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Read the book Origins of the Bill of Rights, chapter 6, by Leonard W. Levy (Yale University Press copyright 1999). In that chapter Professor Levy explains how the II Amendment is an individual right. The book was written before Justice Scalia was on the Supreme Court and it clarifies the real originalist meaning of the II Amendment.

While some guy named Leonard wrote a book, Scalia as one of the nine SCOTUS judges affects every American's life.

In this case, Scalia gave permission for individuals to own guns, and the NRA promoted ownership of killing machines that can cause mass inflection of damage in the shortest amount of time.

Hmm


But we pretty much already had permission as individuals to own guns long before that. But a large portion of us hadn't yet been indoctrinated in reality tee vee to the point where we can't distinguish between it and reality.

What I'm getting at is, some of this is environmental and you and I are not the first to say "There goes the neighborhood."
A lot of folks around the world are saying it.

They didn't used to as much. Of course they thought our 2A was unusual but it didn't crop up as much in everyday conversation.
They don't have much choice but to do just that when they see the news every single day from America, another shooting, and nothing done about it.

We have been taught to interact with guns in a very different manner than in the past. Not just the shooters, all of us.

Even people who in the past had the same adamant anti-gun beliefs as now were different. I knew maybe two or even three people who were very anti-gun when I was a youngster. One of them was the old lady I took piano lessons from, and she was an old Southern lady!
Truda E. D'Andelet was born and raised in Louisiana.
She worked for "the telephone company" as a "0" Operator.
And she sounded like one, unless she got upset!

But get this: she was a lesbian, and so were her two roommates!
They lived together in the house across the street from me for most of my childhood.

They had one roomie named Mary Katherine who was very butch, and I am going to guess she was maybe 2A friendly, just a gut feeling.
I am sure all three of them are in the ground now, they were old when I was a baby.

But "Miss Trudy" just hissed quiet disapproval the day she saw me playing rifles with my little buddy, clucking her tongue and whispering about lawdy lawdy.
We were a couple of kids with toy guns and she just didn't like them but she never brought it up at my next piano lesson.

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#315707 - 09/22/19 03:37 AM Re: RoundTable for Fall 2019 [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16957
Loc: Florida
The "well regulated" part gets ignored a lot too.
These particular weapons seem to be fetishized by angry young white men who probably shouldn't own weapons.

I got nuthin' against firearms or anybody's rights to have them. This AR-15 thing seems to fall along the same lines as the old Thompson sub-machine gun. Bad guys can do too much damage too fast with them. I don't even see a reason for an outright ban on them as long as a special license and registration be required.

Let's just try to keep them out of the hands of crazy people. You put one of these things in some people's hands and suddenly they're Rambo and on a mission...y'know...?
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#315712 - 09/22/19 04:39 AM Re: RoundTable for Fall 2019 [Re: pdx rick]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Read the book Origins of the Bill of Rights, chapter 6, by Leonard W. Levy (Yale University Press copyright 1999). In that chapter Professor Levy explains how the II Amendment is an individual right. The book was written before Justice Scalia was on the Supreme Court and it clarifies the real originalist meaning of the II Amendment.

While some guy named Leonard wrote a book, Scalia as one of the nine SCOTUS judges affects every American's life.

In this case, Scalia gave permission for individuals to own guns, and the NRA promoted ownership of killing machines that can cause mass inflection of damage in the shortest amount of time.

Hmm

Originally Posted By: logtroll
You're gonna have to sell your case a little better before you persuade me to go hunt down and buy an out of print book to read chapter 6 just to find out if yer blowing smoke up my ass again!

The II Amendment
Quote:
The second interpretation is that the 2nd Amendment's purpose does not only refer to the state's need for security, but to individual self-defense. This argument relies on precedent in English common law and colonial history and refers to many state constitutions and court decisions that have defined the right to bear arms as an individual right.
James MadisonJames Madison

In addition, this interpretation relies on the fact that James Madison originally proposed this amendment as an insertion into the Constitution's Article I, Section 9, between clauses 3 and 4. This section mentions prohibitions on suspension of habeas corpus, bills of attainder and ex post facto laws. All of these are individual civil rights that are used by citizens to defend themselves against unjust government officials. All of these limit the power of the government.

Since this is where Madison believed the insertion of the 2nd Amendment should go, this interpretation says, he must have understood the right to bear arms as an individual right. If Madison had intended "the right to bear arms" only as a state right, he should have included the 2nd Amendment in Article I, Section 8, which describes Congress' military power over the militia.

All of Madison's original amendments were meant as insertions into the Constitution and not as a list at the end. The decision to add them at the end was made by Congress after he proposed them.

United States v. Emerson 1999
"Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right."
U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, in re U.S. vs Emerson (1999)
The History of the Right to Bear Arms.
Quote:
The right of the individual to keep and use weapons has a long tradition in Western civilization. The Greek philosopher Aristotle (384–322 B.C.) wrote in Politics that ownership of weapons was necessary for true citizenship and participation in the political system. By contrast, another Greek philosopher, Plato (428–348 B.C.), wrote in the Republic that he believed in a monarchy with few liberties and saw the disarming of the populace as essential to the maintenance of an orderly and autocratic system. The Roman politician Marcus Tullius Cicero (106–43 B.C.) wrote in De Officiis of his support of bearing arms for self-defense of the individual and for public defense against tyranny. The Italian political philosopher Niccolò Machiavelli (1469–1527) advocated in Discourse an armed populace of citizen-soldiers to keep headstrong rulers in line.

_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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