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#315469 - 09/16/19 06:45 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
pdx rick Offline
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CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41847
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: perotista
...Perhaps the lack of two parent families, kids being raised by day care and after school programs, TV and video games instead of a stay at home mom could have something to do with it also.

You forget the /s for snark after that paragraph. smile


Originally Posted By: perotista
We just don't know, but can make guesses. Another may be the blurring of right and wrong from white and black into gray. Who knows, but there has to be a reason, a cause or many reasons and causes.

Most likely its going to be a brain development issue such as when science found that conservatives have a larger than normal amygdala and are prone to over-react to fear. Hmm

To suggest love, empathy, nurturing and caring are the root causes of these "changes" in society, as you did above this one, is ridiculous.

crazy


The lack of love, empathy, nurturing and caring. Perhaps not the lack of love so much, but the lack of a guiding hand. Someone to help with the homework and encourage study when dealing with the brain. Someone to discipline and teach right and wrong. Tough love so to speak.

Single parents and after-school programs do all of that. What else do you have? smile
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#315470 - 09/16/19 06:47 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
pdx rick Offline
Member
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41847
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: perotista
Maybe this is why most folks don't want to know the cause or the reasons for all these mass killings.

Pretty sure the easy access to guns that can shoot-off 30-rounds in less than a minute is aiding "mass" shootings. smile

I'm also going with my brain dysfunction theory. smile
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#315471 - 09/16/19 07:59 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15538
Loc: Florida
Quote:
brain dysfunction


Absolutely! And it's stress induced. It's end stage gonzo capitalism run amok!
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#315477 - 09/16/19 10:37 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Greger]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 134
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Makes sense to me. We just don't know and won't until we are willing to do some real searching for the cause, the reason. I do think many of us can make educated guesses and hit on some that may be the causes. That most of us don't want to know what the real cause is. That we wouldn't like the real cause or reasons that come forth.


"We" being whom? I mentioned above that I believe economic stress is at the heart of it all. Stay at home moms went the way of cheap doctor bills and living wages. Kids raised themselves.

I'll admit that I'm baffled at the mess that our society has become, but I can still relate everything that has gone wrong to family economics. If I was going to point a finger at any one thing that caused all this it would be easy credit. Instead of keeping the minimum wage current with inflation The government let the banks extend a everyone a line of credit...Credit Cards.

The result is a society buried in debt and economic stress. Nobody has any idea how to live within their means anymore and it extends into every facet of their lives. That most recent shooter got fired from his job and it tipped the scales. A directly economic cause of the shooting.

If all he had was a deer rifle maybe he'd have gone hunting deer instead of people. Back during the prohibition they outlawed machine guns. Because police were being outgunned. If these shooters were targeting policemen with these weapons you'd find them banned in a heartbeat. But it's just regular folks and schoolkids watering the tree of liberty with their blood. A price we pay for our freedom.


Economic stress be indeed be part of the problem that causes as you put, kids to raise themselves. I do wonder how much of that stress is the results of having to have a 60 TV instead of a 24 or buying a pair of 200-dollar sneakers for Johnny instead of a 20 dollar pair. Im not including everyone when I say that, but thinking about my two daughters working which me and the wife taking care and raising the grandkids so they can have the latest in video games, clothes, cars etc. Im sure many families have to have both parents work just to make ends with ordinary shoes, clothes and the like. Has anyone did any research to find what income type of family these mass shooters come from? Poor, middle class, upper middle class, rich. I dont know.

When I grew up, hardly no one had a credit card, now everyone seems to have a dozen or more. But whos fault is it if they overextend on all of them? I grew up in the 1950s, my dad gave me a .410 at the age of 12 to go hunting with. I rode my bike into town to buy shells for it at the Western Auto, no questions asked. Yet, for the entire decade of the 1950s there was but one mass shootings and that one was more of a terrorist attack. Puerto Rican Nationalist shot from the balcony of the House of Representatives. Outside of the law where one had to have a permit to own a machine gun, there were no gun control laws.

Most folks mock the 1950s as the Ozzie and Harriet decade, the Father knows best decade. But perhaps the people back then had the answer to all these mass shootings?
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It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#315479 - 09/16/19 11:04 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: NW Ponderer]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 134
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
With respect, my friend, I am going to edit down to the salient points for my response. Feel free to address my elidations.
Originally Posted By: perotista
I don't think the NRA has a thing to do with mass shootings or gun violence. I think our society as a whole has taken a wrong turn. That we have a deep root problem within our society that is causing all these killings. One we don't want to find, know about, search for or acknowledge.
On this explanation, I mostly agree. Except: I do think that the NRA has something to do with the mass shootings you so eloquently and thoroughly expound upon. For decades the NRA has opposed gun regulation of any kind. (That wasn't the case before the takeover of the NRA by Wayne LaPierre and his cabal.) They have used language that is both untrue and inflammatory to do so. They have also extolled the virtues of (and excused the use of) assault weapons and the attitude that guns have an outsized importance to our liberties (Bullshit!) They have made the possession and use of assault weapons a virtue rather than something to be looked at askance. In that they have been at the very least complicit in the social change you are addressing.

Originally Posted By: perotista
To me all of this means the problem isn't guns, they're a tool.
I reach a different conclusion. I generally agree that guns are a tool. The problem is that we have allowed the spread of a tool that is inappropriate in our society. I think we can all agree that proper tools, with the proper training, can be very useful in appropriate circumstances. Dynamite, for example, has laudatory applications in mining, in surveying, in demolition. That does not mean that dynamite should be allowed to be used anywhere and anywhen anyone somehow desires. Assault weapons, similarly, are very effective on the battlefield, where they are designed to belong. (I trained on and carried one for many years.) One of those purposes is "suppressive fire" - to keep the enemy's head down to allow maneuver. Not something that is reasonably necessary for civilian use. That same feature allows the weapon to be used to inflict mass casualties in open and crowded areas, and as a weapon of terrorism. Similarly, what purpose do large-capacity magazines have in either pistols or rifles in a civilian setting? Revolvers have seldom been used in mass killings. Why?

This issue is similar to ethical questions about cloning. Just because we can have weapons with these capacities avoids the question of whether we should.

Originally Posted By: perotista
[The problem] lies somewhere in our society where we went wrong someplace. I'll make a prediction that even if we ban all guns and do away with the NRA, the killings will continue. They will continue by other means, perhaps not as deadly, perhaps more deadly. Bombs, knives, machetes, arson, fire, chemicals, other means will replace guns. The motive, the reason, the deep root cause of these killings will still be there, the reasons and causes will still exist. No one cares about those. At least it seems that way to me.
These are salient points. There is a problem in our society and those root causes need to be addressed. (One of them, I believe, is the prevalence of firearms in the civilian world, and the terror that this condition incites.) But, here's a fly in your suppositions: The prevalence of public attacks in other places is not substantially lower than in the United States. The reality is, they are just less effective. Knives are unwieldy and easier to counteract; bombs require sophistication and are easier to detect; arson still occurs, but is less likely to result in substantial deaths; chemicals are harder to procure. What makes the American experience unique is the easy access to firearms - weapons of mass destruction. When you eliminate all of the other variables, this is the one that stands out.

Having now caught up, how about we conduct an experiment: Let's eliminate guns with capacity to fire more than say, 6 rounds, in the public sphere and see what happens? I would be willing to bet my pension that that change alone would reduce mass murder by more than 50%. (It would certainly reduce mass shootings.) Maybe then we can address some of the systemic issues you are raising.


I've never belonged to the NRA, but like a lot of other organizations they've become politicized. I think those who blame guns for these mass shootings will think the NRA is responsible. If they do, that's fine with me, but I think they're wrong. They're a lot of folks out there who think the NRA is fighting to protect law abiding, innocent firearms owners from confiscation. Listening to O'Rourke give credence to why some support the NRA.

I think our differences is I would like to see us delve deep into society first to find the causes for these mass shootings. Once we know the causes, if eliminating guns with higher capacity magazines helps, then by all means. You want it the other way around. I think these mass killers who kill for killing's sake will find other means. Bombs, arson, chemicals etc. Easy enough.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#315484 - 09/16/19 11:37 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41847
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: perotista
I don't think the NRA has a thing to do with mass shootings or gun violence.

Welp, there is this little inconvenient truth - we'll never know:

Quote:
How the NRA Suppressed Gun Violence Research

The National Rifle Association used its influence over a Congressman to codify language that prevents the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) from funding research into gun violence, which kills and injures tens of thousands of people in the US each year.

Union of Conserned Scientists

smile
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#315485 - 09/16/19 11:39 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9481
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: perotista
I think our differences is I would like to see us delve deep into society first to find the causes for these mass shootings. Once we know the causes, if eliminating guns with higher capacity magazines helps, then by all means. You want it the other way around. I think these mass killers who kill for killing's sake will find other means. Bombs, arson, chemicals etc. Easy enough.

IfI remember correctly, the NRA has consistently lobbied against any government funding to study the psychological causes of the gun violence issue.

NRA and gun violence research
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#315486 - 09/16/19 11:41 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41847
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: NRA
...and you get a gun, and you get a gun, and you get a gun.

Hmm
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#315500 - 09/17/19 12:54 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 134
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: perotista
I don't think the NRA has a thing to do with mass shootings or gun violence.

Welp, there is this little inconvenient truth - we'll never know:

Quote:
How the NRA Suppressed Gun Violence Research

The National Rifle Association used its influence over a Congressman to codify language that prevents the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) from funding research into gun violence, which kills and injures tens of thousands of people in the US each year.

Union of Conserned Scientists

smile

Perhaps the view of the NRA revolves around whether one thinks guns are responsible or if one think the individual is responsible caused by something gone wrong within our society. We've had 150 plus mass shootings since 2010, almost doubling all mass shootings from 1900-2009. 10% of all mass shootings occurred between 1900-1979, 90% after, 1980-today. Guns were readily available pre-1980 with a lot less regulations and laws.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#315501 - 09/17/19 12:55 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: logtroll]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 134
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: perotista
I think our differences is I would like to see us delve deep into society first to find the causes for these mass shootings. Once we know the causes, if eliminating guns with higher capacity magazines helps, then by all means. You want it the other way around. I think these mass killers who kill for killing's sake will find other means. Bombs, arson, chemicals etc. Easy enough.

IfI remember correctly, the NRA has consistently lobbied against any government funding to study the psychological causes of the gun violence issue.

NRA and gun violence research


You may be right, I don't know. If so they were wrong.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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