Current Topics
Politics - the art of using deception to get power
by logtroll
RoundTable for Fall 2019
by pondering_it_all
04:12 AM
The Impeachment of Donald trump
by pondering_it_all
04:06 AM
What is a far leftist, anyway?
by perotista
04:00 AM
The Trump/Biden/Ukraine thing
by pondering_it_all
03:58 AM
Public option vs Medicare for All
by pondering_it_all
03:04 AM
auto industry, unions and strikes
by jgw
07:14 PM
Where have all the conservatives gone?
by NW Ponderer
10/20/19 04:16 PM
What is "old"?
by Greger
10/19/19 03:03 AM
Never-Before-Seen Trump Tax Documents Show Major Inconsistencies
by pondering_it_all
10/19/19 02:26 AM
Hyper-partisanship and irrationality
by logtroll
10/19/19 12:47 AM
If ISIS does the unthinkable...
by chunkstyle
10/18/19 01:09 PM
Are both "sides" equally corrupt?
by chunkstyle
10/18/19 12:18 PM
The Departed - 2019
by pdx rick
10/17/19 01:12 PM
Why do humans fight so much?
by Greger
10/15/19 02:13 PM
Global warming predictions
by logtroll
10/13/19 08:47 PM
Turkey's Erdogan threatens to release millions of refugees into Europe over crit
by pdx rick
10/12/19 07:35 PM
Partisans' Trust in Legislative Branch Has Shifted in Past Year
by perotista
10/11/19 03:37 AM
Trump unleashes ISIS in Kurd Country
by Greger
10/10/19 05:31 PM
SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization
by NW Ponderer
10/09/19 03:08 PM
Forum Stats
6282 Members
59 Forums
16716 Topics
291001 Posts

Max Online: 294 @ 12/06/17 12:57 AM
Google Adsense
Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 ... 9 10 >
Topic Options
#314846 - 09/04/19 11:18 PM SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Quote:
The San Francisco Board of Supervisors passed a resolution on Tuesday declaring that the National Rifle Association is a domestic terrorist organization. The officials also urged other cities, states and the federal government to follow suit.

...

Later in the resolution, which the board passed unanimously, the NRA is blamed for causing gun violence. "The National Rifle Association musters its considerable wealth and organizational strength to promote gun ownership and incite gun owners to acts of violence," the resolution reads.

The resolution also claims that the NRA "spreads propaganda," "promotes extremist positions," and has "through its advocacy has armed those individuals who would and have committed acts of terrorism."

SF Gate

Gun humpers - how do you like them apples? smile
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#314848 - 09/04/19 11:25 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


One could argue that when a regime like the Trump Administration gives domestic terrorists easy access to guns and also fills their heads with hatred and racist doctrines, it's time to start talking about state-sponsored terrorism. Hmm
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#314857 - 09/05/19 04:55 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1604
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Quote:
The San Francisco Board of Supervisors passed a resolution on Tuesday declaring that the National Rifle Association is a domestic terrorist organization. The officials also urged other cities, states and the federal government to follow suit.

...

Later in the resolution, which the board passed unanimously, the NRA is blamed for causing gun violence. "The National Rifle Association musters its considerable wealth and organizational strength to promote gun ownership and incite gun owners to acts of violence," the resolution reads.

The resolution also claims that the NRA "spreads propaganda," "promotes extremist positions," and has "through its advocacy has armed those individuals who would and have committed acts of terrorism."

SF Gate

Gun humpers - how do you like them apples? smile

This is from a city that protects violent felons from being deported even if the felons have been caught breaking the law.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#314860 - 09/05/19 05:29 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
This is from a city that protects violent felons from being deported even if the felons have been caught breaking the law.

Oh pshaw Senator. Didn't Sean Hannity tell you that after five days of deliberations, a jury acquitted García Zárate of all murder and manslaughter charges? Hmm

Weird how rightwing media only tells you parts of the story they want you to know. coffee
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#314868 - 09/05/19 02:13 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1604
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
This is from a city that protects violent felons from being deported even if the felons have been caught breaking the law.

Oh pshaw Senator. Didn't Sean Hannity tell you that after five days of deliberations, a jury acquitted García Zárate of all murder and manslaughter charges? Hmm

Weird how rightwing media only tells you parts of the story they want you to know. coffee

I didn't get my information from the right wing media. I got it from the city of San Francisco. Here ares the San Francisco city ordinances that protect violent felons from being deported. I got them from the San Francisco city hall website, not right wing media.
https://sfgov.org/oceia/sanctuary-city-ordinance-0
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#314871 - 09/05/19 04:15 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15513
Loc: Florida
Near as I can tell, Senator, the ordinance only impacts immigration law. Burglary, murder, rape and theft, traffic violations or anything else remain in effect. It's a freedom thing. The states and the cities are free to make their own laws rather than kowtow to the feds...

Liberty.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

Top
#314873 - 09/05/19 04:24 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
[quote=pdx rick][quote=Senator Hatrack]This is from a city that protects violent f I got them from the San Francisco city hall website, not right wing media.
https://sfgov.org/oceia/sanctuary-city-ordinance-0

San Francisco's "Due Process for All" ordinance restricts cooperation with ICE to only cases where the immigrant had both current violent felony charges and past violent felony convictions; therefore, San Francisco disregarded the detainer and released him.

Zárate was released from San Francisco County Jail on April 15, 2015, and had no outstanding warrants or judicial warrants, as confirmed by the San Francisco Sheriff's Department.

So, what's the problem? smile
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#314876 - 09/05/19 04:36 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1604
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
[quote=pdx rick][quote=Senator Hatrack]This is from a city that protects violent f I got them from the San Francisco city hall website, not right wing media.
https://sfgov.org/oceia/sanctuary-city-ordinance-0

San Francisco's "Due Process for All" ordinance restricts cooperation with ICE to only cases where the immigrant had both current violent felony charges and past violent felony convictions; therefore, San Francisco disregarded the detainer and released him.

Zárate was released from San Francisco County Jail on April 15, 2015, and had no outstanding warrants or judicial warrants, as confirmed by the San Francisco Sheriff's Department.

So, what's the problem? smile

What's the problem? That the city government of San Francisco is preventing justice from being served by protecting violent felons! That the city of San Francisco wants to protect violent felons not the law abiding citizens of the city. Everyone should have a problem with that!
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#314879 - 09/05/19 05:34 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
What's the problem? That the city government of San Francisco is preventing justice from being served by protecting violent felons!

Easy tiger. smile

Once again: coffee

Quote:
Zárate was released from San Francisco County Jail on April 15, 2015, and had no outstanding warrants or judicial warrants, as confirmed by the San Francisco Sheriff's Department.


Once again: rolleyes

Quote:
A jury acquitted García Zárate of all murder and manslaughter charges.


So...what's the problem? Hmm

_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#314881 - 09/05/19 05:58 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15513
Loc: Florida
Liberty is the problem Rick. That city and others are denying The US Government its sovereignty and absolute power to control the actions of the people within its borders.

All people, citizens and non-citizens alike must carry the proper paperwork at all times or face arrest or deportation. All cities states and other entities must enforce these rules....

Bow to the Feds. They rule supreme.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

Top
#314882 - 09/05/19 06:02 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Greger
Liberty is the problem Rick. That city and others are denying The US Government its sovereignty and absolute power to control the actions of the people within its borders.

All people, citizens and non-citizens alike must carry the proper paperwork at all times or face arrest or deportation. All cities states and other entities must enforce these rules....

Bow to the Feds. They rule supreme.

Co-equal sharing of power over citizens by two separate legal jurisdictions seems to have its difficulties, that's for sure. Hmm
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#314885 - 09/05/19 06:32 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1604
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
What's the problem? That the city government of San Francisco is preventing justice from being served by protecting violent felons!

Easy tiger. smile

Once again: coffee

Quote:
Zárate was released from San Francisco County Jail on April 15, 2015, and had no outstanding warrants or judicial warrants, as confirmed by the San Francisco Sheriff's Department.


Once again: rolleyes

Quote:
A jury acquitted García Zárate of all murder and manslaughter charges.


So...what's the problem? Hmm


The problem is not the one case you mentioned. The problem is the idea of creating a sanctuary for criminals which is what San Francisco has done.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#314886 - 09/05/19 06:43 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The problem is not the one case you mentioned. The problem is the idea of creating a sanctuary for criminals which is what San Francisco has done.

Once again sir, you keep harping on the idea that San Francisco is creating a "sanctuary for criminals" when I have cited the actual language of their policy and that policy doesn't not support your pre-conceived notion.

smile
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#314892 - 09/05/19 07:15 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1604
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The problem is not the one case you mentioned. The problem is the idea of creating a sanctuary for criminals which is what San Francisco has done.

Once again sir, you keep harping on the idea that San Francisco is creating a "sanctuary for criminals" when I have cited the actual language of their policy and that policy doesn't not support your pre-conceived notion.

smile

The ordinances of San Francisco do create a sanctuary for criminals. Here is the city ordinance that does.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#314894 - 09/05/19 07:20 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The ordinances of San Francisco do create a sanctuary for criminals. Here is the city ordinance that does.

Please cite the specific page and language. Thank you in advance. smile
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#314898 - 09/05/19 07:31 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

Both WalMart and Walgreen's have ended open-carry in their stores. smile

Who needs #MoscowMitch to bring approved gun-safety House Bills to the Senate floor, anyway. Hmm
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#314905 - 09/05/19 08:32 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1604
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The ordinances of San Francisco do create a sanctuary for criminals. Here is the city ordinance that does.

Please cite the specific page and language. Thank you in advance. smile

The link takes you to specific page where you can read it for yourself.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#314906 - 09/05/19 08:33 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1604
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: pdx rick

Both WalMart and Walgreen's have ended open-carry in their stores. smile

Who needs #MoscowMitch to bring approved gun-safety House Bills to the Senate floor, anyway. Hmm

If those businesses want to chase away customers they have the right to do so. I won't shop at either of them.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#314920 - 09/05/19 10:21 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: pdx rick

Both WalMart and Walgreen's have ended open-carry in their stores. smile

Who needs #MoscowMitch to bring approved gun-safety House Bills to the Senate floor, anyway. Hmm

If those businesses want to chase away customers they have the right to do so. I won't shop at either of them.

Liberals shop at Target anyway. smile
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#314922 - 09/05/19 10:24 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The link takes you to specific page where you can read it for yourself.

Where in Chapter 12H does is say "ordinances of San Francisco do create a sanctuary for criminals."

Hmm

Isn't that your interpretation of what you're reading? Might you be reading into something that's not there? smile
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#314933 - 09/05/19 11:07 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1604
Loc: MN
The title of of it. 12H.1.City and County of Refuge.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#314938 - 09/06/19 12:25 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15513
Loc: Florida
There can be no refuge from the Federal Government's authority. It must be absolute.

Liberty is for the well to do, the lucky and the few. The rest will carry their papers and do what they are told.

"Why do we build the wall, My children? We build the wall to keep us free..."
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

Top
#314939 - 09/06/19 12:30 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The title of of it. 12H.1.City and County of Refuge.

Section 12H.1 literally states:

Quote:
It is hereby affirmed that the City and County of San Francisco is a City and County of Refuge.

(Added by Ord. 375-89 10/24/89)

So when you wrote, "This is from a city that protects violent felons from being deported even if the felons have been caught breaking the law," that was not a true statement.

THAT was your opinion based upon what exactly? Hmm


_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#314941 - 09/06/19 01:25 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15513
Loc: Florida
Since it appears we aren't going to talk about the NRA being a right wing terrorist group let's address why San Francisco didn't want the feds messing with their illegals.

They are a much needed source of labor! They are a valuable resource to the community. They live there they work there they pay taxes and just because republicans are in a snit about undocumented immigrants this year they don't need jackbooted thugs coming into their communities and destroying lives. They can't actually stop it because nothing ever stops Uncle Sam but they can refuse to spend municipal funds to have brown people torn from their families in Gestapoesque midnight raids.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

Top
#314943 - 09/06/19 01:32 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Greger
Since it appears we aren't going to talk about the NRA being a right wing terrorist group...

Perhaps the NRA being a terrorist organization is a given? Hmm
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#314959 - 09/06/19 04:01 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Greger]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1604
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Greger
Since it appears we aren't going to talk about the NRA being a right wing terrorist group let's address why San Francisco didn't want the feds messing with their illegals.

They are a much needed source of labor! They are a valuable resource to the community. They live there they work there they pay taxes and just because republicans are in a snit about undocumented immigrants this year they don't need jackbooted thugs coming into their communities and destroying lives. They can't actually stop it because nothing ever stops Uncle Sam but they can refuse to spend municipal funds to have brown people torn from their families in Gestapoesque midnight raids.
Except for part about the immigrants being paid and paying taxes that is an argument that was used to justify slavery.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#314976 - 09/06/19 06:00 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15513
Loc: Florida
Yeah, paying the help makes them not slaves but workers. Is that straws you are grasping there?
Remove that imagined criminal element from your argument and you have nothing left but blatant authoritarianism.
Senator, on the one hand you want minimal federal government interference and on the other you want them to violently interfere with the lives of workers. Over something I perceive as a matter of paperwork. I'm not talking about open borders here... Screen 'em, process 'em, chip 'em like a goddam dog, and give them an id/pay card so they can start paying taxes. It'll be a lot cheaper than locking them up. Beyond that the same laws apply to them as anyone else.

And I might tack an entry fee onto their future taxes too. Freedom aint free y'know.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

Top
#315170 - 09/10/19 06:33 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

The NRA is suing San Francisco after the city declared it a “domestic terrorist organization,” alleging the declaration violates the group’s free speech rights.

Reuters
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#315218 - 09/12/19 08:23 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8788
Loc: North San Diego County
I don't know about a domestic terrorist organization. Some of their rhetoric has certain gotten lots of people killed, but I doubt any of that was actually organized by NRA officials. But what they are is a money-laundering criminal enterprise that funnels Russian oligarch money to Republicans. What other conclusion can you draw, when Russians contribute millions to the NRA (for no particular reason), and then the NRA turns right around and gives millions to Republican organizations, PACs, and candidates?

I think Putin picked the Republican Party to subvert, because it was the easiest what with being filled with ethically-challenged people who were ready to sell out their country on the cheap.

Top
#315236 - 09/12/19 01:17 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I think Putin picked the Republican Party to subvert, because it was the easiest what with being filled with ethically-challenged people who were ready to sell out their country on the cheap.

Certainly the Republican voter is the easiest one to lead astray - that's for sure - else we wouldn't have Trump - we'd have Jed Bush.

Hmm
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#315355 - 09/14/19 10:20 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14335
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Except for part about the immigrants being paid and paying taxes that is an argument that was used to justify slavery.


Slaves were paid and paid taxes?
On what planet?
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

Top
#315356 - 09/14/19 10:24 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14335
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all


I think Putin picked the Republican Party to subvert, because it was the easiest what with being filled with ethically-challenged people who were ready to sell out their country on the cheap.


Well, when you have a prezzy-dint who enjoys yelling "Hey! Where's my favorite dictator!", it tends to make most people think that prezzy-dint isn't a fan of democracy, or pretty much anything having to do with American values.
It tends to make people think that prezzy-dint is a fan of dictatorship.
Who else but a fan of dictatorship would even have a "favorite dictator?"
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

Top
#315362 - 09/14/19 11:43 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15513
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Except for part about the immigrants being paid and paying taxes that is an argument that was used to justify slavery.


Slaves were paid and paid taxes?
On what planet?


NONONONONO

This is totally out of context, part of a longer discussion. It made sense at the time.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

Top
#315374 - 09/15/19 05:19 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Except for part about the immigrants being paid and paying taxes that is an argument that was used to justify slavery.

Slaves were paid and paid taxes?
On what planet?

Planet Republican Historical Revisionism coffee
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#315383 - 09/15/19 10:47 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Quote:
The San Francisco Board of Supervisors passed a resolution on Tuesday declaring that the National Rifle Association is a domestic terrorist organization. The officials also urged other cities, states and the federal government to follow suit.

...

Later in the resolution, which the board passed unanimously, the NRA is blamed for causing gun violence. "The National Rifle Association musters its considerable wealth and organizational strength to promote gun ownership and incite gun owners to acts of violence," the resolution reads.

The resolution also claims that the NRA "spreads propaganda," "promotes extremist positions," and has "through its advocacy has armed those individuals who would and have committed acts of terrorism."

SF Gate

Gun humpers - how do you like them apples? smile

I don't think the NRA has a thing to do with mass shootings or gun violence. I think our society as a whole has taken a wrong turn. That we have a deep root problem within our society that is causing all these killings. One we don't want to find, know about, search for or acknowledge.

We had a total of 28 mass shootings from 1900-1970. More or less pre-Gun control era, when the NRA wasn't such a political force or advocate if you will. Most of those shootings the shooter knew his victims, they were familicides or committed in a felony.

Then comes the steep rise in the gun control era, 13 in the decade of the 1970's, 32 in the 1980's, 42 in the 1990's, 28 in the decade of the 2000's. Then we sky rocked with well over 150 in the 2010's and still counting. In this group most killings the shooter doesn't know his victims, they're innocent bystanders and the shooting occurs in public places. Killing for killing's sake.

To me all of this means the problem isn't guns, they're a tool. It lies somewhere in our society where we went wrong someplace. I'll make a prediction that even if we ban all guns and do away with the NRA, the killings will continue. They will continue by other means, perhaps not as deadly, perhaps more deadly. Bombs, knives, machetes, arson, fire, chemicals, other means will replace guns. The motive, the reason, the deep root cause of these killings will still be there, the reasons and causes will still exist. No one cares about those. At least it seems that way to me.



Edited by perotista (09/15/19 11:01 AM)
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315410 - 09/15/19 07:28 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15513
Loc: Florida
Agreed down the line.

Our society has become a pressure cooker and folks are beginning to crack. There are observable reasons for this.

I'm okay with trained, licensed and seasoned, hunters and firearms aficionados owning and collecting these weapons. But I've got a problem when Clifford the Crazydude can run down to K-Mart and pick up the weapon he imagines himself being a hero/antihero with as he guns down hoards of his enemies.

It's not really a gun problem. It's a specific style of firearm. It's only used by military and law enforcement and should be extremely rare and expensive among private owners.

But cheap knockoffs are available everywhere and they can easily be converted to auto fire. I'm just sayin'...these weapons seem to trigger a certain subset of the population who probably should not own firearms in the first place.

Make 'em do it with a deer rifle and a four shot magazine.

And also address the reason our society is falling apart at the seams.

Income inequality.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

Top
#315414 - 09/15/19 07:42 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Quote:
The San Francisco Board of Supervisors passed a resolution on Tuesday declaring that the National Rifle Association is a domestic terrorist organization. The officials also urged other cities, states and the federal government to follow suit.

...

Later in the resolution, which the board passed unanimously, the NRA is blamed for causing gun violence. "The National Rifle Association musters its considerable wealth and organizational strength to promote gun ownership and incite gun owners to acts of violence," the resolution reads.

The resolution also claims that the NRA "spreads propaganda," "promotes extremist positions," and has "through its advocacy has armed those individuals who would and have committed acts of terrorism."

SF Gate

Gun humpers - how do you like them apples? smile

I don't think the NRA has a thing to do with mass shootings or gun violence.

The fact that the NRA supports citizens having military-grade weapons shows otherwise. There is no reason what-so-ever for society to have access to military-grade weaponry just for fun.

The Colt AR-15 is based on the ArmaLite AR-15 design. In 1956, ArmaLite designed a lightweight selective fire rifle for military use and designated it the ArmaLite Rifle model 15, or AR-15.

Armalite history

The AR-15 was designed for military purposes. A military weapon is designed for one reason only: to inflect as much damage to anyone or anything on the other side of the military weapon, in the shortest amount of time.

This is why the AR-15 is the weapon of choice for mass-shooters. Hmm
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#315419 - 09/15/19 08:33 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Greger]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: Greger
Agreed down the line.



And also address the reason our society is falling apart at the seams.

Income inequality.




I don't know the reason, but we definitely need to dig deep into our society to find out the reason why we have had a 150 plus mass shootings in less than nine years. That comes close to doubling all the mass shooting in this country from 1900-2010.

Perhaps more of the right type of gun control is needed. But it won't help if we refuse to try to find the problem that causes this. I don't think it's income inequality. That's been with us forever. We've had worst income inequality prior to the 1960's and pre-FDR with no safety nets whatsoever. Yet, relative few mass shootings.

I don't know the reason behind them. But I do think it is high past time we try to find out.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315420 - 09/15/19 08:48 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Quote:
The San Francisco Board of Supervisors passed a resolution on Tuesday declaring that the National Rifle Association is a domestic terrorist organization. The officials also urged other cities, states and the federal government to follow suit.

...

Later in the resolution, which the board passed unanimously, the NRA is blamed for causing gun violence. "The National Rifle Association musters its considerable wealth and organizational strength to promote gun ownership and incite gun owners to acts of violence," the resolution reads.

The resolution also claims that the NRA "spreads propaganda," "promotes extremist positions," and has "through its advocacy has armed those individuals who would and have committed acts of terrorism."

SF Gate

Gun humpers - how do you like them apples? smile

I don't think the NRA has a thing to do with mass shootings or gun violence.

The fact that the NRA supports citizens having military-grade weapons shows otherwise. There is no reason what-so-ever for society to have access to military-grade weaponry just for fun.

The Colt AR-15 is based on the ArmaLite AR-15 design. In 1956, ArmaLite designed a lightweight selective fire rifle for military use and designated it the ArmaLite Rifle model 15, or AR-15.

Armalite history

The AR-15 was designed for military purposes. A military weapon is designed for one reason only: to inflect as much damage to anyone or anything on the other side of the military weapon, in the shortest amount of time.

This is why the AR-15 is the weapon of choice for mass-shooters. Hmm


Okay, but two questions. Do you believe guns are at fault for all these mass shootings? Or has something gone wrong in our society that is a deep hidden reason that causes these mass shootings?

Personally, I believe if something isn't done to try to find the root causes, these mass killings will continue. That you could ban every single gun, but without finding the root causes and doing something about them, these killers will turn to other means. Bombs, fire, arson, chemicals, Knives and machetes, driving cars into crowds, and more ways I haven't thought of.

they may less deadly, they may be more deadly. 45 school kids were killed by a bomb in Michigan with 58 more injured. Someone set a fire in a Bronx nightclub killing 87. 31 dead using knives in China, 500 via machetes in Nigeria, 133 dead in south Korea using gasoline and a match, Japan, 13 dead of sarin gas. There are other means besides guns if we don't try to find the reasons for these mass killings.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315425 - 09/15/19 11:01 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9475
Loc: One of the Mexicos
I have said that the real problem is cultural for many years, now. Exactly what the cultural problem is, I don't know. It might have something to do with the lack of basic effort required to live (growing food, connection to the environment), maybe some connection to the increasingly impersonal way we live (internet, everything store bought, reducing interpersonal interactions) - cars and road rage I think are an example of being isolated and protected against "the real world" in powerful machines and feeling that others in cars are imposing on us. Maybe the widespread existence of the virtual world, where lots of violence and killing takes place with no consequences. Maybe too many people and too little sense of accomplishment or productivity.

There might be an element of stricter gun control that stimulates a greater sense of responsibility and social stigma about the improper use of guns.

Maybe, maybe, maybe...
_________________________
You can’t solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

Top
#315433 - 09/16/19 01:16 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: perotista
Okay, but two questions. Do you believe guns are at fault for all these mass shootings?

Without guns that can unload 30-plus rounds in less than one minute - there wouldn't be "mass" shootings - only shootings. Hmm


Originally Posted By: perotista
[H]as something gone wrong in our society that is a deep hidden reason that causes these mass shootings?

Like processed foods or corn syrup added to the American diet? smile
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#315450 - 09/16/19 11:16 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: logtroll]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: logtroll
I have said that the real problem is cultural for many years, now. Exactly what the cultural problem is, I don't know. It might have something to do with the lack of basic effort required to live (growing food, connection to the environment), maybe some connection to the increasingly impersonal way we live (internet, everything store bought, reducing interpersonal interactions) - cars and road rage I think are an example of being isolated and protected against "the real world" in powerful machines and feeling that others in cars are imposing on us. Maybe the widespread existence of the virtual world, where lots of violence and killing takes place with no consequences. Maybe too many people and too little sense of accomplishment or productivity.

There might be an element of stricter gun control that stimulates a greater sense of responsibility and social stigma about the improper use of guns.

Maybe, maybe, maybe...


Makes sense to me. We just don't know and won't until we are willing to do some real searching for the cause, the reason. I do think many of us can make educated guesses and hit on some that may be the causes. That most of us don't want to know what the real cause is. That we wouldn't like the real cause or reasons that come forth.

You have hit on some causes that in my book fit the situation. Perhaps the lack of two parent families, kids being raised by day care and after school programs, TV and video games instead of a stay at home mom could have something to do with it also. We just don't know, but can make guesses. Another may be the blurring of right and wrong from white and black into gray. Who knows, but there has to be a reason, a cause or many reasons and causes.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315459 - 09/16/19 03:56 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: perotista
...Perhaps the lack of two parent families, kids being raised by day care and after school programs, TV and video games instead of a stay at home mom could have something to do with it also.

You forget the /s for snark after that paragraph. smile


Originally Posted By: perotista
We just don't know, but can make guesses. Another may be the blurring of right and wrong from white and black into gray. Who knows, but there has to be a reason, a cause or many reasons and causes.

Most likely its going to be a brain development issue such as when science found that conservatives have a larger than normal amygdala and are prone to over-react to fear. Hmm

To suggest love, empathy, nurturing and caring are the root causes of these "changes" in society, as you did above this one, is ridiculous.

crazy
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#315460 - 09/16/19 04:40 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: perotista
...Perhaps the lack of two parent families, kids being raised by day care and after school programs, TV and video games instead of a stay at home mom could have something to do with it also.

You forget the /s for snark after that paragraph. smile


Originally Posted By: perotista
We just don't know, but can make guesses. Another may be the blurring of right and wrong from white and black into gray. Who knows, but there has to be a reason, a cause or many reasons and causes.

Most likely its going to be a brain development issue such as when science found that conservatives have a larger than normal amygdala and are prone to over-react to fear. Hmm

To suggest love, empathy, nurturing and caring are the root causes of these "changes" in society, as you did above this one, is ridiculous.

crazy


The lack of love, empathy, nurturing and caring. Perhaps not the lack of love so much, but the lack of a guiding hand. Someone to help with the homework and encourage study when dealing with the brain. Someone to discipline and teach right and wrong. Tough love so to speak.

Maybe this is why most folks don't want to know the cause or the reasons for all these mass killings. It might reflect bad on them and bad on society as a whole. So we go after a tool leaving the causes and reasons in place. That to me is like treating a patient with a headache caused by a brain tumor by giving him aspirin. Sure the headache goes away, but the cause remains and more and more headaches are sure to come.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315462 - 09/16/19 04:58 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17116
Originally Posted By: Greger
Near as I can tell, Senator, the ordinance only impacts immigration law. Burglary, murder, rape and theft, traffic violations or anything else remain in effect. It's a freedom thing. The states and the cities are free to make their own laws rather than kowtow to the feds...

Liberty.
Wouldn't that be a "conservative" principle?
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#315463 - 09/16/19 05:03 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17116
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The problem is not the one case you mentioned. The problem is the idea of creating a sanctuary for criminals which is what San Francisco has done.
I think, my friend, that you are addressing an issue that a) is not germane to the thread, and b) is contrary to the actual ordinance. That is commonly referred to as a "strawman". The ordinance does not, in fact, protect criminals as you assert. It simply does not allow the apparatus of the city (paid for by its citizens) to be shanghaied into use by the federal government (without compensation). Can you show me otherwise?

Top
#315465 - 09/16/19 05:09 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17116
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The ordinances of San Francisco do create a sanctuary for criminals. Here is the city ordinance that does.

Please cite the specific page and language. Thank you in advance. smile

The link takes you to specific page where you can read it for yourself.
SH, Having read it myself, it does not say what you allege it says, or do what you allege it does. It expressly applies only to actions "conducted by the Federal agency charged with enforcement of the Federal immigration law and relating to alleged violations of the civil provisions of the Federal immigration law" and further "except for cooperation related to an alleged violation of City and County, State, or Federal criminal laws". Game, set, match.

Oh dang, I just realized I got caught in the dishonest game of distract and deflect. This is a thread about the NRA. My bad.

Top
#315466 - 09/16/19 05:28 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15513
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Makes sense to me. We just don't know and won't until we are willing to do some real searching for the cause, the reason. I do think many of us can make educated guesses and hit on some that may be the causes. That most of us don't want to know what the real cause is. That we wouldn't like the real cause or reasons that come forth.


"We" being whom? I mentioned above that I believe economic stress is at the heart of it all. Stay at home moms went the way of cheap doctor bills and living wages. Kids raised themselves.

I'll admit that I'm baffled at the mess that our society has become, but I can still relate everything that has gone wrong to family economics. If I was going to point a finger at any one thing that caused all this it would be easy credit. Instead of keeping the minimum wage current with inflation The government let the banks extend a everyone a line of credit...Credit Cards.

The result is a society buried in debt and economic stress. Nobody has any idea how to live within their means anymore and it extends into every facet of their lives. That most recent shooter got fired from his job and it tipped the scales. A directly economic cause of the shooting.

If all he had was a deer rifle maybe he'd have gone hunting deer instead of people. Back during the prohibition they outlawed machine guns. Because police were being outgunned. If these shooters were targeting policemen with these weapons you'd find them banned in a heartbeat. But it's just regular folks and schoolkids watering the tree of liberty with their blood. A price we pay for our freedom.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

Top
#315467 - 09/16/19 06:01 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17116
With respect, my friend, I am going to edit down to the salient points for my response. Feel free to address my elidations.
Originally Posted By: perotista
I don't think the NRA has a thing to do with mass shootings or gun violence. I think our society as a whole has taken a wrong turn. That we have a deep root problem within our society that is causing all these killings. One we don't want to find, know about, search for or acknowledge.
On this explanation, I mostly agree. Except: I do think that the NRA has something to do with the mass shootings you so eloquently and thoroughly expound upon. For decades the NRA has opposed gun regulation of any kind. (That wasn't the case before the takeover of the NRA by Wayne LaPierre and his cabal.) They have used language that is both untrue and inflammatory to do so. They have also extolled the virtues of (and excused the use of) assault weapons and the attitude that guns have an outsized importance to our liberties (Bullshit!) They have made the possession and use of assault weapons a virtue rather than something to be looked at askance. In that they have been at the very least complicit in the social change you are addressing.

Originally Posted By: perotista
To me all of this means the problem isn't guns, they're a tool.
I reach a different conclusion. I generally agree that guns are a tool. The problem is that we have allowed the spread of a tool that is inappropriate in our society. I think we can all agree that proper tools, with the proper training, can be very useful in appropriate circumstances. Dynamite, for example, has laudatory applications in mining, in surveying, in demolition. That does not mean that dynamite should be allowed to be used anywhere and anywhen anyone somehow desires. Assault weapons, similarly, are very effective on the battlefield, where they are designed to belong. (I trained on and carried one for many years.) One of those purposes is "suppressive fire" - to keep the enemy's head down to allow maneuver. Not something that is reasonably necessary for civilian use. That same feature allows the weapon to be used to inflict mass casualties in open and crowded areas, and as a weapon of terrorism. Similarly, what purpose do large-capacity magazines have in either pistols or rifles in a civilian setting? Revolvers have seldom been used in mass killings. Why?

This issue is similar to ethical questions about cloning. Just because we can have weapons with these capacities avoids the question of whether we should.

Originally Posted By: perotista
[The problem] lies somewhere in our society where we went wrong someplace. I'll make a prediction that even if we ban all guns and do away with the NRA, the killings will continue. They will continue by other means, perhaps not as deadly, perhaps more deadly. Bombs, knives, machetes, arson, fire, chemicals, other means will replace guns. The motive, the reason, the deep root cause of these killings will still be there, the reasons and causes will still exist. No one cares about those. At least it seems that way to me.
These are salient points. There is a problem in our society and those root causes need to be addressed. (One of them, I believe, is the prevalence of firearms in the civilian world, and the terror that this condition incites.) But, here's a fly in your suppositions: The prevalence of public attacks in other places is not substantially lower than in the United States. The reality is, they are just less effective. Knives are unwieldy and easier to counteract; bombs require sophistication and are easier to detect; arson still occurs, but is less likely to result in substantial deaths; chemicals are harder to procure. What makes the American experience unique is the easy access to firearms - weapons of mass destruction. When you eliminate all of the other variables, this is the one that stands out.

Having now caught up, how about we conduct an experiment: Let's eliminate guns with capacity to fire more than say, 6 rounds, in the public sphere and see what happens? I would be willing to bet my pension that that change alone would reduce mass murder by more than 50%. (It would certainly reduce mass shootings.) Maybe then we can address some of the systemic issues you are raising.


Edited by NW Ponderer (09/16/19 06:14 PM)

Top
#315468 - 09/16/19 06:07 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17116
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: Greger
Agreed down the line.



And also address the reason our society is falling apart at the seams.

Income inequality.




I don't know the reason, but we definitely need to dig deep into our society to find out the reason why we have had a 150 plus mass shootings in less than nine years. That comes close to doubling all the mass shooting in this country from 1900-2010.

Perhaps more of the right type of gun control is needed. But it won't help if we refuse to try to find the problem that causes this. I don't think it's income inequality. That's been with us forever. We've had worst income inequality prior to the 1960's and pre-FDR with no safety nets whatsoever. Yet, relative few mass shootings.

I don't know the reason behind them. But I do think it is high past time we try to find out.
A query: What weapons were readily available prior to 1960 to carry out mass shootings with?

Top
#315469 - 09/16/19 06:45 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: perotista
...Perhaps the lack of two parent families, kids being raised by day care and after school programs, TV and video games instead of a stay at home mom could have something to do with it also.

You forget the /s for snark after that paragraph. smile


Originally Posted By: perotista
We just don't know, but can make guesses. Another may be the blurring of right and wrong from white and black into gray. Who knows, but there has to be a reason, a cause or many reasons and causes.

Most likely its going to be a brain development issue such as when science found that conservatives have a larger than normal amygdala and are prone to over-react to fear. Hmm

To suggest love, empathy, nurturing and caring are the root causes of these "changes" in society, as you did above this one, is ridiculous.

crazy


The lack of love, empathy, nurturing and caring. Perhaps not the lack of love so much, but the lack of a guiding hand. Someone to help with the homework and encourage study when dealing with the brain. Someone to discipline and teach right and wrong. Tough love so to speak.

Single parents and after-school programs do all of that. What else do you have? smile
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#315470 - 09/16/19 06:47 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: perotista
Maybe this is why most folks don't want to know the cause or the reasons for all these mass killings.

Pretty sure the easy access to guns that can shoot-off 30-rounds in less than a minute is aiding "mass" shootings. smile

I'm also going with my brain dysfunction theory. smile
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#315471 - 09/16/19 07:59 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15513
Loc: Florida
Quote:
brain dysfunction


Absolutely! And it's stress induced. It's end stage gonzo capitalism run amok!
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

Top
#315477 - 09/16/19 10:37 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Greger]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Makes sense to me. We just don't know and won't until we are willing to do some real searching for the cause, the reason. I do think many of us can make educated guesses and hit on some that may be the causes. That most of us don't want to know what the real cause is. That we wouldn't like the real cause or reasons that come forth.


"We" being whom? I mentioned above that I believe economic stress is at the heart of it all. Stay at home moms went the way of cheap doctor bills and living wages. Kids raised themselves.

I'll admit that I'm baffled at the mess that our society has become, but I can still relate everything that has gone wrong to family economics. If I was going to point a finger at any one thing that caused all this it would be easy credit. Instead of keeping the minimum wage current with inflation The government let the banks extend a everyone a line of credit...Credit Cards.

The result is a society buried in debt and economic stress. Nobody has any idea how to live within their means anymore and it extends into every facet of their lives. That most recent shooter got fired from his job and it tipped the scales. A directly economic cause of the shooting.

If all he had was a deer rifle maybe he'd have gone hunting deer instead of people. Back during the prohibition they outlawed machine guns. Because police were being outgunned. If these shooters were targeting policemen with these weapons you'd find them banned in a heartbeat. But it's just regular folks and schoolkids watering the tree of liberty with their blood. A price we pay for our freedom.


Economic stress be indeed be part of the problem that causes as you put, kids to raise themselves. I do wonder how much of that stress is the results of having to have a 60” TV instead of a 24” or buying a pair of 200-dollar sneakers for Johnny instead of a 20 dollar pair. I’m not including everyone when I say that, but thinking about my two daughters working which me and the wife taking care and raising the grandkids so they can have the latest in video games, clothes, cars etc. I’m sure many families have to have both parents work just to make ends with ordinary shoes, clothes and the like. Has anyone did any research to find what income type of family these mass shooters come from? Poor, middle class, upper middle class, rich. I don’t know.

When I grew up, hardly no one had a credit card, now everyone seems to have a dozen or more. But who’s fault is it if they overextend on all of them? I grew up in the 1950’s, my dad gave me a .410 at the age of 12 to go hunting with. I rode my bike into town to buy shells for it at the Western Auto, no questions asked. Yet, for the entire decade of the 1950’s there was but one mass shootings and that one was more of a terrorist attack. Puerto Rican Nationalist shot from the balcony of the House of Representatives. Outside of the law where one had to have a permit to own a machine gun, there were no gun control laws.

Most folks mock the 1950’s as the Ozzie and Harriet decade, the Father knows best decade. But perhaps the people back then had the answer to all these mass shootings?
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315479 - 09/16/19 11:04 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: NW Ponderer]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
With respect, my friend, I am going to edit down to the salient points for my response. Feel free to address my elidations.
Originally Posted By: perotista
I don't think the NRA has a thing to do with mass shootings or gun violence. I think our society as a whole has taken a wrong turn. That we have a deep root problem within our society that is causing all these killings. One we don't want to find, know about, search for or acknowledge.
On this explanation, I mostly agree. Except: I do think that the NRA has something to do with the mass shootings you so eloquently and thoroughly expound upon. For decades the NRA has opposed gun regulation of any kind. (That wasn't the case before the takeover of the NRA by Wayne LaPierre and his cabal.) They have used language that is both untrue and inflammatory to do so. They have also extolled the virtues of (and excused the use of) assault weapons and the attitude that guns have an outsized importance to our liberties (Bullshit!) They have made the possession and use of assault weapons a virtue rather than something to be looked at askance. In that they have been at the very least complicit in the social change you are addressing.

Originally Posted By: perotista
To me all of this means the problem isn't guns, they're a tool.
I reach a different conclusion. I generally agree that guns are a tool. The problem is that we have allowed the spread of a tool that is inappropriate in our society. I think we can all agree that proper tools, with the proper training, can be very useful in appropriate circumstances. Dynamite, for example, has laudatory applications in mining, in surveying, in demolition. That does not mean that dynamite should be allowed to be used anywhere and anywhen anyone somehow desires. Assault weapons, similarly, are very effective on the battlefield, where they are designed to belong. (I trained on and carried one for many years.) One of those purposes is "suppressive fire" - to keep the enemy's head down to allow maneuver. Not something that is reasonably necessary for civilian use. That same feature allows the weapon to be used to inflict mass casualties in open and crowded areas, and as a weapon of terrorism. Similarly, what purpose do large-capacity magazines have in either pistols or rifles in a civilian setting? Revolvers have seldom been used in mass killings. Why?

This issue is similar to ethical questions about cloning. Just because we can have weapons with these capacities avoids the question of whether we should.

Originally Posted By: perotista
[The problem] lies somewhere in our society where we went wrong someplace. I'll make a prediction that even if we ban all guns and do away with the NRA, the killings will continue. They will continue by other means, perhaps not as deadly, perhaps more deadly. Bombs, knives, machetes, arson, fire, chemicals, other means will replace guns. The motive, the reason, the deep root cause of these killings will still be there, the reasons and causes will still exist. No one cares about those. At least it seems that way to me.
These are salient points. There is a problem in our society and those root causes need to be addressed. (One of them, I believe, is the prevalence of firearms in the civilian world, and the terror that this condition incites.) But, here's a fly in your suppositions: The prevalence of public attacks in other places is not substantially lower than in the United States. The reality is, they are just less effective. Knives are unwieldy and easier to counteract; bombs require sophistication and are easier to detect; arson still occurs, but is less likely to result in substantial deaths; chemicals are harder to procure. What makes the American experience unique is the easy access to firearms - weapons of mass destruction. When you eliminate all of the other variables, this is the one that stands out.

Having now caught up, how about we conduct an experiment: Let's eliminate guns with capacity to fire more than say, 6 rounds, in the public sphere and see what happens? I would be willing to bet my pension that that change alone would reduce mass murder by more than 50%. (It would certainly reduce mass shootings.) Maybe then we can address some of the systemic issues you are raising.


I've never belonged to the NRA, but like a lot of other organizations they've become politicized. I think those who blame guns for these mass shootings will think the NRA is responsible. If they do, that's fine with me, but I think they're wrong. They're a lot of folks out there who think the NRA is fighting to protect law abiding, innocent firearms owners from confiscation. Listening to O'Rourke give credence to why some support the NRA.

I think our differences is I would like to see us delve deep into society first to find the causes for these mass shootings. Once we know the causes, if eliminating guns with higher capacity magazines helps, then by all means. You want it the other way around. I think these mass killers who kill for killing's sake will find other means. Bombs, arson, chemicals etc. Easy enough.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315484 - 09/16/19 11:37 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: perotista
I don't think the NRA has a thing to do with mass shootings or gun violence.

Welp, there is this little inconvenient truth - we'll never know:

Quote:
How the NRA Suppressed Gun Violence Research

The National Rifle Association used its influence over a Congressman to codify language that prevents the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) from funding research into gun violence, which kills and injures tens of thousands of people in the US each year.

Union of Conserned Scientists

smile
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#315485 - 09/16/19 11:39 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9475
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: perotista
I think our differences is I would like to see us delve deep into society first to find the causes for these mass shootings. Once we know the causes, if eliminating guns with higher capacity magazines helps, then by all means. You want it the other way around. I think these mass killers who kill for killing's sake will find other means. Bombs, arson, chemicals etc. Easy enough.

IfI remember correctly, the NRA has consistently lobbied against any government funding to study the psychological causes of the gun violence issue.

NRA and gun violence research
_________________________
You can’t solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

Top
#315486 - 09/16/19 11:41 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: NRA
...and you get a gun, and you get a gun, and you get a gun.

Hmm
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#315500 - 09/17/19 12:54 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: perotista
I don't think the NRA has a thing to do with mass shootings or gun violence.

Welp, there is this little inconvenient truth - we'll never know:

Quote:
How the NRA Suppressed Gun Violence Research

The National Rifle Association used its influence over a Congressman to codify language that prevents the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) from funding research into gun violence, which kills and injures tens of thousands of people in the US each year.

Union of Conserned Scientists

smile

Perhaps the view of the NRA revolves around whether one thinks guns are responsible or if one think the individual is responsible caused by something gone wrong within our society. We've had 150 plus mass shootings since 2010, almost doubling all mass shootings from 1900-2009. 10% of all mass shootings occurred between 1900-1979, 90% after, 1980-today. Guns were readily available pre-1980 with a lot less regulations and laws.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315501 - 09/17/19 12:55 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: logtroll]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: perotista
I think our differences is I would like to see us delve deep into society first to find the causes for these mass shootings. Once we know the causes, if eliminating guns with higher capacity magazines helps, then by all means. You want it the other way around. I think these mass killers who kill for killing's sake will find other means. Bombs, arson, chemicals etc. Easy enough.

IfI remember correctly, the NRA has consistently lobbied against any government funding to study the psychological causes of the gun violence issue.

NRA and gun violence research


You may be right, I don't know. If so they were wrong.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315508 - 09/17/19 02:45 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: perotista
We've had 150 plus mass shootings since 2010, almost doubling all mass shootings from 1900-2009. 10% of all mass shootings occurred between 1900-1979, 90% after, 1980-today. Guns were readily available pre-1980 with a lot less regulations and laws.

How many mass shootings were there during the 1994-2004 assault rifle ban?

smile

(Note: The Columbine massacre used previously purchased guns prior to 1994).
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



Top
#315570 - 09/18/19 12:09 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: perotista
We've had 150 plus mass shootings since 2010, almost doubling all mass shootings from 1900-2009. 10% of all mass shootings occurred between 1900-1979, 90% after, 1980-today. Guns were readily available pre-1980 with a lot less regulations and laws.

How many mass shootings were there during the 1994-2004 assault rifle ban?

smile

(Note: The Columbine massacre used previously purchased guns prior to 1994).


1994-2004 29

By comparison per decade.
1900'S 0
1910'S 2
1920'S 2
1930' 9
1940'S 8
1950'S 1
1960'S 6
1970'S 13
1980'S 32
1990'S 42
2000'S 28
2010'S over 150 and still counting. You had the Al Capone gangster era of the 30's and 40's. Then mass shootings didn't take off until the 1980's. Then sky rocketed in the 2010's.

The 29 mass shootings during 1994-2004 was average for the four decades from 1970-2010 when mass shootings became double digits which averaged 28.75. No significant difference in the ten year average.


Edited by perotista (09/18/19 12:22 AM)
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315590 - 09/18/19 04:09 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17116
I tried to copy the relevant slides but failed, so here: 1940 Census to 2010 (Census Bureau). What the charts indicate is interesting and, I think, relevant here. The US population in 1940 was 132 million. Now it is over 330 million and growing. The country we occupy is not any bigger. Population density has skyrocketed, and it has moved west. Visualizing 200 years of U.S. population density. Moreover, guns per capita has also grown exponentially. Yet, violent crime, in particular, murder, has gone down.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/kiifklF.jpg?2[/img] Again, what has changed is a) the nature of the weapon used FBI Homicide table; 2017 murder chart (Statista), and b) the ubiquity of the weapon in the population.
Quote:
In 2012, there were 8,855 total firearm-related homicides in the United States, with 6,371 of those attributed to handguns. In 2012, 64% of all gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides. In 2010, there were 19,392 firearm-related suicides, and 11,078 firearm-related homicides in the U.S.
(Wikipedia, Gun violence)

So, while I agree that social issues are a factor, they are not the leading factor.

Here's my take: When addressing an illness there are two ways of attacking it: address the symptom, and address the underlying cause. Usually, the medical approach is to attack the symptoms emergently, then the underlying cause, which takes longer but is more effective. Here the use of firearms is the symptom - emergent condition - and the social causes, which are harder to determine and treat, will be the follow-on treatment. That's how I think the issue needs to be addressed.

Top
#315592 - 09/18/19 04:21 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17116
Getting back to the central premise of the thread: I am a very strong advocate for civil rights protections - a member of the ACLU and everything - so I am loathe to criticize or criminalize speech, even specious and ugly speech. There is a point, however, where speech bleeds over into actual criminal and dangerous behavior - inciting a riot, for example. The central question here is whether the speech and actions of the NRA have crossed that line. I am generally of the opinion that they have done terrible, terrible things, socially, but that the speech involved is protected by the First Amendment. Interestingly, I don't know how that affects the SF Board's determination, which is largely symbolic, and therefore, protected as well.

Top
#315604 - 09/18/19 07:07 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: NW Ponderer]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15513
Loc: Florida
While acts of terrorism are usually illegal(but not always) the acts themselves are nothing but tools to spread a message. The message is delivered how?

Speech.

What the NRA chose to do with their platform wasn't criminal by any means, but did it spread a message of terror?

Apparently some think so. Ethics and legality once again run head to head.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

Top
#315616 - 09/19/19 05:05 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17116
As an aside, isn't it amazing to have a conversation about a gun issue that doesn't devolve into a string of ideological claptrap?

Top
#315621 - 09/19/19 11:32 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: NW Ponderer]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
As an aside, isn't it amazing to have a conversation about a gun issue that doesn't devolve into a string of ideological claptrap?



I've found out over the years on other sites that ideologues and the ultra partisans are the ones who resort to claptrap as you put it. Even name calling among being totally unwilling to listen or hear anything from someone who isn't of their political view or any belief on any subject.

So far it's been refreshing here. On the gun issue I found our we are more or less of agreement. We disagree on which should come first and which should be second. That's fine, which reminds me of our two major political parties of 40 or so years ago. Back then ultra partisanship and today's polarization didn't exist, each had their own conservative and liberal wings. Each respected the other, both major agreed that each party's goal was for a better America, more secure and prosperous, only the path to get there was different.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315622 - 09/19/19 12:22 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9475
Loc: One of the Mexicos
An allegory for the difference between discussions and arguments can be found in this anecdote: a friend was once employed in Montana as a “wilderness ranger”, a job that had him living during the non-winter months in a cabin at Lost Horse Pass on the crest of the Bitterroot mountain range, on the edge of the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness. He’s a colorful character with a wit as sharp as Twain.

He told me that in the opening days of hunting season that practically every hunter who made the journey to the end of the rough dirt road where his cabin lay would stop in for a chat, eventually culminating with the question, “Can you tell me where the elk are around here?” His standard reply was also a question; “Didja come all this way to hunt, or do you just wanna kill something?”

:ohsnap:
_________________________
You can’t solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

Top
#315623 - 09/19/19 01:21 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: logtroll]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: logtroll
An allegory for the difference between discussions and arguments can be found in this anecdote: a friend was once employed in Montana as a “wilderness ranger”, a job that had him living during the non-winter months in a cabin at Lost Horse Pass on the crest of the Bitterroot mountain range, on the edge of the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness. He’s a colorful character with a wit as sharp as Twain.

He told me that in the opening days of hunting season that practically every hunter who made the journey to the end of the rough dirt road where his cabin lay would stop in for a chat, eventually culminating with the question, “Can you tell me where the elk are around here?” His standard reply was also a question; “Didja come all this way to hunt, or do you just wanna kill something?”

:ohsnap:


I like it.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315636 - 09/19/19 07:37 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17116
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
As an aside, isn't it amazing to have a conversation about a gun issue that doesn't devolve into a string of ideological claptrap?



....
So far it's been refreshing here. On the gun issue I found our we are more or less of agreement. We disagree on which should come first and which should be second. That's fine, which reminds me of our two major political parties of 40 or so years ago. Back then ultra partisanship and today's polarization didn't exist, each had their own conservative and liberal wings. Each respected the other, both major agreed that each party's goal was for a better America, more secure and prosperous, only the path to get there was different.
I have sometimes referred to myself as a "recovering conservative", although the transition is far from complete. I am quite opinionated, but, I hope, respectful and polite. I do, however, have a trigger for ultra partisanship or doctrinaire poses, as posters on both sides of the divide can attest. I try, as much as reasonable, to keep an open mind and respond to considered (and researched) positions. I've noted (here? I can't remember) that I've worked for candidates in both, and neither, party, and advocated for a variety of positions across the ideological spectrum. In my earlier years, as you indicated, there was a good deal Of overlap between the parties' wings. Of late, though, that overlap has mostly disappeared and reasoned disagreement has been replaced by a partisan free-for-all. It saddens me.

Top
#315637 - 09/19/19 07:49 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: NW Ponderer]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
As an aside, isn't it amazing to have a conversation about a gun issue that doesn't devolve into a string of ideological claptrap?



....
So far it's been refreshing here. On the gun issue I found our we are more or less of agreement. We disagree on which should come first and which should be second. That's fine, which reminds me of our two major political parties of 40 or so years ago. Back then ultra partisanship and today's polarization didn't exist, each had their own conservative and liberal wings. Each respected the other, both major agreed that each party's goal was for a better America, more secure and prosperous, only the path to get there was different.
I have sometimes referred to myself as a "recovering conservative", although the transition is far from complete. I am quite opinionated, but, I hope, respectful and polite. I do, however, have a trigger for ultra partisanship or doctrinaire poses, as posters on both sides of the divide can attest. I try, as much as reasonable, to keep an open mind and respond to considered (and researched) positions. I've noted (here? I can't remember) that I've worked for candidates in both, and neither, party, and advocated for a variety of positions across the ideological spectrum. In my earlier years, as you indicated, there was a good deal Of overlap between the parties' wings. Of late, though, that overlap has mostly disappeared and reasoned disagreement has been replaced by a partisan free-for-all. It saddens me.


Me also. The worst part of all of this modern day ultra high partisanship and polarization is if one party proposes something, the other party is automatically against. No thoughts whatsoever over the merits of the proposal or whether it might be good, bad or indifferent for the country as a whole.

I think if you go back to pre-2000 you'll find very few party line votes. They happened, but were vary rare. Today it seems almost every vote is party line or close to it. That I think has a lot to do with the leadership of both parties in the House and Senate. Especially the senate. Daschle and Lott for the most part could work things out, come to a compromise. So too Dole and Mitchell, Byrd and Baker. None of them would have ever thought of using the nuclear option.

But then again, there wasn't the ultra high partisanship and polarization we see today.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315644 - 09/19/19 09:18 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14335
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: perotista
Today it seems almost every vote is party line or close to it. That I think has a lot to do with the leadership of both parties in the House and Senate. Especially the senate. Daschle and Lott for the most part could work things out, come to a compromise. So too Dole and Mitchell, Byrd and Baker. None of them would have ever thought of using the nuclear option.

But then again, there wasn't the ultra high partisanship and polarization we see today.


Well, you do know ME well enough to know I am not any kind of marxist or ultra-left social justice warrior, and you know I am not Antifa friendly either.

In fact, you probably know me pretty well. I am open to compromise on a lot of stuff. You've probably heard me talk about the fact that it's not Trump's party choice that freaks me out, it's the man himself.

Sure sure, I'd bitch and whine if a Republican was elected POTUS but for the most part I've always felt that it is survivable.
Maybe it's not my cup of tea but I know we will eventually get a turn at bat if we can sell our ideas successfully.

But I've never seen a POTUS or an administration or the lion's share of a party dedicate itself to completely tearing down the state and weakening democracy on this scale.
And that wasn't always the Republican coin of the realm.
But it appears to be now, at least as long as Trump is in power anyway.

I don't want the state torn down and I don't want democracy weakened, and I don't want an authoritarian strongman running the country.

That's all. Democracy dies in darkness.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

Top
#315646 - 09/19/19 09:45 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: perotista
Today it seems almost every vote is party line or close to it. That I think has a lot to do with the leadership of both parties in the House and Senate. Especially the senate. Daschle and Lott for the most part could work things out, come to a compromise. So too Dole and Mitchell, Byrd and Baker. None of them would have ever thought of using the nuclear option.

But then again, there wasn't the ultra high partisanship and polarization we see today.


Well, you do know ME well enough to know I am not any kind of marxist or ultra-left social justice warrior, and you know I am not Antifa friendly either.

In fact, you probably know me pretty well. I am open to compromise on a lot of stuff. You've probably heard me talk about the fact that it's not Trump's party choice that freaks me out, it's the man himself.

Sure sure, I'd bitch and whine if a Republican was elected POTUS but for the most part I've always felt that it is survivable.
Maybe it's not my cup of tea but I know we will eventually get a turn at bat if we can sell our ideas successfully.

But I've never seen a POTUS or an administration or the lion's share of a party dedicate itself to completely tearing down the state and weakening democracy on this scale.
And that wasn't always the Republican coin of the realm.
But it appears to be now, at least as long as Trump is in power anyway.

I don't want the state torn down and I don't want democracy weakened, and I don't want an authoritarian strongman running the country.

That's all. Democracy dies in darkness.


Like you, some of the candidates for president I liked, wanted won, others lost. But I've always been comfortable with whomever won. That is until Trump came along. I'm not a bit comfortable with him as president. I was born right after WWII, so that includes quite a lot of presidents.

I also wouldn't have been comfortable with Hillary Clinton either, so I voted against both by casting a ballot for a third party candidate. I wanted my vote officially registered against both. 2016 was a good news, bad news election for me. The good news, Hillary lost, the bad news, Trump won. That sums up 2016 for me.

I'm not an ideologue or that partisan. Certainly not a party animal. I want Trump replaced, but replaced with someone I would be comfortable being president. There are a couple of Democrats running for the nomination I wouldn't be. If either one wins the nomination, that means another third party vote. I have no qualms voting third party when I dislike both major party candidates. I've done that 5 times since 1968, my first presidential election when one had to be 21 to vote.

As for Trump, I have supported some of his policies, been against some with a bunch being irrelevant to me. Pretty much like any other president in my lifetime. But I really dislike the man, the person, the individual. I could agree with him on 100% of the issues and I still wouldn't vote for him.

The problem is that we have created the imperial presidency. Congress has ceded many of its constitutional powers to the administration or other government agencies, departments. Those members of congress of the president's party are more part of the administration than of the institution of congress.


When was the last time a Speaker of the House stood up to a president of his own party and told him no, I'm not giving you that power. In my lifetime, Sam Rayburn, Mike McCormick, Carl Albert comes to mind. That's all. Since then, every Speaker of the president's party has tried to give the president everything he wanted and more. Becoming part of the administration than of congress.

That's my rant.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315650 - 09/19/19 11:51 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14335
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: perotista


The problem is that we have created the imperial presidency. Congress has ceded many of its constitutional powers to the administration or other government agencies, departments. Those members of congress of the president's party are more part of the administration than of the institution of congress.


When was the last time a Speaker of the House stood up to a president of his own party and told him no, I'm not giving you that power. In my lifetime, Sam Rayburn, Mike McCormick, Carl Albert comes to mind. That's all. Since then, every Speaker of the president's party has tried to give the president everything he wanted and more. Becoming part of the administration than of congress.

That's my rant.


I just want the two major parties to respect each other more, and grant some dignity and some trust. We are apparently fond of believing that we are two different species at this point.
How about let's just say that anyone who doesn't live here couldn't be blamed for coming to that conclusion.
But I assure you, we are not. I know you know that, too.

Mr. Trump loves seeing us at war with each other, Mitch does, too.
Most of the party faithful are in on it, too...they're on board.

I know quite a few Dems who are on board with their own version, too.
But it is truly alarming to see how Dems, libs et al go to war with each other, too.
That's something you don't see much of on the other side. People just LEAVE the party or they are asked to leave.
And GOP lawmakers who do it are often primaried and/or voted out.

I want to see this go back to being more like a friendly sports rivalry. We don't have to agree on everything but it is not a sin to sit down and find common ground and it is not a sin to give a little.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

Top
#315652 - 09/20/19 12:45 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: perotista


The problem is that we have created the imperial presidency. Congress has ceded many of its constitutional powers to the administration or other government agencies, departments. Those members of congress of the president's party are more part of the administration than of the institution of congress.


When was the last time a Speaker of the House stood up to a president of his own party and told him no, I'm not giving you that power. In my lifetime, Sam Rayburn, Mike McCormick, Carl Albert comes to mind. That's all. Since then, every Speaker of the president's party has tried to give the president everything he wanted and more. Becoming part of the administration than of congress.

That's my rant.


I just want the two major parties to respect each other more, and grant some dignity and some trust. We are apparently fond of believing that we are two different species at this point.
How about let's just say that anyone who doesn't live here couldn't be blamed for coming to that conclusion.
But I assure you, we are not. I know you know that, too.

Mr. Trump loves seeing us at war with each other, Mitch does, too.
Most of the party faithful are in on it, too...they're on board.

I know quite a few Dems who are on board with their own version, too.
But it is truly alarming to see how Dems, libs et al go to war with each other, too.
That's something you don't see much of on the other side. People just LEAVE the party or they are asked to leave.
And GOP lawmakers who do it are often primaried and/or voted out.

I want to see this go back to being more like a friendly sports rivalry. We don't have to agree on everything but it is not a sin to sit down and find common ground and it is not a sin to give a little.






There was a time. A time when parties still had their differences, but respected each other, they weren't out to destroy each other. There was a time when each party acknowledged both parties wanted what was best for America, for a secure and prosperous America. Each recognized this and realized each party had a different path, but the same goal.

Today Republicans think the Democrats are out to destroy this country and vice versa. The Democrats think the Republicans want to destroy it.

The Republican Party has always been sort of a country club party. Since Eisenhower numbering between 25-30% up to today. Business oriented. The Democratic Party was once the big tent party. Represented the working man, the middle class, not the liberal elite of the northeast. They were Rockefeller Republicans. Democrats were tough on defense, pro-military, at least until Vietnam. Then it became the peace dove party. The big tent party began to shrink, losing its Southern and Midwestern conservatives. The old Rockefeller Republicans became liberal northeastern Democrats. The south became Republican. The West Coast switched to the Democrats. Lots of changes, way too many to go into. Pew Research shows the strength of the two major parties.

https://www.people-press.org/interactives/party-id-trend/

Pew ends in 2014. But the big tent Democratic Party no longer exists. First they got rid of their conservatives and now it's the moderates, the blue dogs who are being asked to leave or forced out due to not being progressive enough for the liberal elites. The GOP continues on as always, being more or less an exclusive country club between 25-30%. Granted, the GOP didn't start high and thus really had not much to lose. I think the Democratic Party has forgotten all about the working man, the middle class. Today or as of 14 Aug 2019 Gallup puts party affiliation at 29% Democratic, 27% Republican and 40% independent. Compare that to the Democratic Party from FDR until Reagan when it averaged 45% of the electorate or from Reagan to Obama when it averaged 35%.

A friendly sports rivalry is impossible today. What we have left in both parties are hard core ideologues, hard core conservatives and progressives. Those who could work across the aisle to get things done are gone from both parties. Now it is the Trumper's vs. the anti Trumper's. The hard left vs. the hard right. In a way, I think this is what both major parties want. To be rid of those who don't believe or hold the same views. Each having a litmus test of its own.

Just something to think about from one who has no use for either major party. Seems to me the Democrats have forgotten about the working man and are now more concerned with what bathroom a transgender can use. After a 10 year battle to keep Obamacare, when it finally is becoming popular, the Democrats want to destroy it with medicare for all. That makes no sense to me. Then again, I'm not a democrat. We went through a great upheaval with Obamacare, are we ready to go through another just 10 years later in medicare for all?

Just one last question, has the Democratic Party lost the ideal of protecting and helping the working man which made it the big tent party in favor of some social issues that only a few actually care about and affects? Is the working man now left without a political party to call home. Certainly the Republican Party has nothing to offer him. Aw, just tell which bathroom to use.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315653 - 09/20/19 01:19 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14335
Loc: Whittier, California
Good points. Like I said, watching Democrats at war with each is almost as alarming as watching Republicans being at war with poor people.

Yes, Democrats seem to be glued to a kind of corporate oligarchy that overlooks working families. How to get that back...populism isn't the answer.

Medicare for All isn't fleshed out yet. It should be, but it isn't.
I know a few candidates are advocating the end of private insurance, but I also know that in the end we're probably going to wind up with a hybrid.


Edited by Jeffery J. Haas (09/20/19 01:22 AM)
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

Top
#315662 - 09/20/19 11:27 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Good points. Like I said, watching Democrats at war with each is almost as alarming as watching Republicans being at war with poor people.

Yes, Democrats seem to be glued to a kind of corporate oligarchy that overlooks working families. How to get that back...populism isn't the answer.

Medicare for All isn't fleshed out yet. It should be, but it isn't.
I know a few candidates are advocating the end of private insurance, but I also know that in the end we're probably going to wind up with a hybrid.


I think the Democrats have found out that they can with a wink and a nod talk bad about corporations and wall street while still receiving their tens of millions in donations. Did you know Hillary received and spent 1.191 billion to Trump's 646.8 million in 2016?

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/graphics/2016-presidential-campaign-fundraising/

2016 was the first presidential election where the candidate with less money won since 1964 when Goldwater outspent LBJ 16-10 million. A lot of normal Republican money went to Clinton or to no one as they refused to donate to Trump. But Trump was the master of the media hogging the spotlight by being the headliner in all the news reports and calling into all the morning talks shows whether they were for or against him. Trump knew how to utilize the free media where Hillary hid.

I do miss the big tent Democratic Party. But there is no going back. It is my opinion that the Democratic Party has been taken over by white Northeastern and West Coast progressive/liberals more concerned with social issues than the working man, middle class or the average American. The GOP wasn't much interested in them and still isn't.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315663 - 09/20/19 12:18 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14335
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Good points. Like I said, watching Democrats at war with each is almost as alarming as watching Republicans being at war with poor people.

Yes, Democrats seem to be glued to a kind of corporate oligarchy that overlooks working families. How to get that back...populism isn't the answer.

Medicare for All isn't fleshed out yet. It should be, but it isn't.
I know a few candidates are advocating the end of private insurance, but I also know that in the end we're probably going to wind up with a hybrid.


I think the Democrats have found out that they can with a wink and a nod talk bad about corporations and wall street while still receiving their tens of millions in donations. Did you know Hillary received and spent 1.191 billion to Trump's 646.8 million in 2016?


Yes, it was easy for Trump to trim his campaign expenditures.
Our mainstream media GAVE AWAY over TWO BILLION worth of free airtime to the guy. I'm not even talking about Fox here, I'm talking about all the other guys.

Originally Posted By: perotista

2016 was the first presidential election where the candidate with less money won since 1964 when Goldwater outspent LBJ 16-10 million. A lot of normal Republican money went to Clinton or to no one as they refused to donate to Trump. But Trump was the master of the media hogging the spotlight by being the headliner in all the news reports and calling into all the morning talks shows whether they were for or against him. Trump knew how to utilize the free media where Hillary hid.


So it's not some phenomena, it's the fact that Donald Trump, to HIS CREDIT, knows how to manipulate the news media, and he does.
By the way, I am temporarily from Missouri. You have to show me "Republican money going to Clinton" because I find that hard to believe other than a few fringe characters trying on some "sabo-taaaahge."

Originally Posted By: perotista

I do miss the big tent Democratic Party. But there is no going back. It is my opinion that the Democratic Party has been taken over by white Northeastern and West Coast progressive/liberals more concerned with social issues than the working man, middle class or the average American. The GOP wasn't much interested in them and still isn't.


What version of "big tent" do you mean? The big tent that included a Joe Lieberman who singlehandedly delivered the death blow to the public option, the only thing that would have made the ACA truly "Obamacare"? (and would have made it WORK BETTER by saving more people money)

Or do you miss the big tent that included Joe Biden giving away billions to private corrections by creating a jobs program disguised as "tough on crime" laws?

Was it the big tent that stood by while corporations outsourced at a record pace in the 2000's or the big tent that gave cover to invading Iraq?

None of this makes any sense to me because the above are all Republican positions, so it boils down to whether the Democrats are more like Republicans, or less like Republicans.

We can't BE Republicans. Republicans need to be Republicans.
Democrats need to be LEFT of center, not right of center.

You seem to believe that working families are mostly right of center.
I respectfully disagree, particularly when they're stuck with healthcare and college costs which equal more than a second mortgage payment and new car payment put together and they can't even be secure in knowing that the health insurance will cover them when they need it the most, like if one of them comes down with cancer or something equally serious.

I agree that the Democratic Party message isn't well organized or well directed, but it's campaign season 2020 in the embryonic stage.
Will you actually commit to listening to what Liz Warren really has to say?
I don't mean MSM 30 second sound bites, I mean longer interviews.
We know what Biden wants to say already, and I am sure, as the front runner, you won't miss hearing him.

Relax your standards for just a moment and listen to what Liz has to say, even if you will never ever vote for her.
What I am getting at is, she does appear to be for working families.
At least so far.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

Top
#315669 - 09/20/19 02:29 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17116
It's hard for me to lament the loss of the "big tent" when Biden, Bullock, Tester, Klobuchar, Tim Ryan and Tulsi Gabbard (I could go on) are part of the party, or claim that it is not the party of the working class... compared to the Republicans?! Really?!

It's just that the middle has moved so far right - or really, that the right has moved so far right, that we don't recognize moderates anymore. I can find moderates in the Democratic party, but what was left of moderates in the Republican party are making for the exits. Hence my "Where are the conservatives" thread.

But back to the NRA...now there is a moderate voice!

Top
#315671 - 09/20/19 03:15 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14335
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
It's hard for me to lament the loss of the "big tent" when Biden, Bullock, Tester, Klobuchar, Tim Ryan and Tulsi Gabbard (I could go on) are part of the party, or claim that it is not the party of the working class... compared to the Republicans?! Really?!

It's just that the middle has moved so far right - or really, that the right has moved so far right, that we don't recognize moderates anymore. I can find moderates in the Democratic party, but what was left of moderates in the Republican party are making for the exits. Hence my "Where are the conservatives" thread.

But back to the NRA...now there is a moderate voice!


Generic "middle of the road" Dems, like Kerry, Gore, Hillary?
None of them WON!! They all LOST!!

So let us please dispense with this "generic Democrat" big tent nonsense because while the arithmetic may or may not tally that way, when it's time to go to the polls, apparently people don't always vote the way they SAY they will otherwise Gore would have been POTUS, Kerry would have been POTUS and Hillary would be POTUS now.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

Top
#315672 - 09/20/19 03:26 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15513
Loc: Florida
Quote:
watching Democrats at war with each other is almost as alarming as watching Republicans being at war with poor people.

No it's not. It's healthy politics. It's what primary elections are all about.

I want to see Joe Biden's skinny legs cut out from under him. If Warren then loses because Biden lovers refuse to vote for her then so be it. Let the Republicans do what they do best and destroy this nation completely.

We will then rebuild it.

Biden has no message. He stands for nothing. Like Obama but white and really old so not like Obama at all. He hasn't got two adorable little girls. He offers no hope for change. His eyes are on the past and he has no plan for the future.

Perotonista,I don't quite understand your fascination with which bathrooms trans people should use. They are people. If they look like a dude they should use the dude's room and vice versa. It's Republicans making a fuss over deviants in society and Democrats just standing up for rights that you would see trampled. The right to f*cking pee where you feel comfortable peeing. The right to happiness. Give it a rest. We don't spend a lot of time thinking about it except to shake our heads at what assh*les Republublicans can be when it comes to interfering with other peoples lives.

Speak a foriegn language in public? Do you get shouted at by Republicans or Democrats?

See a dickweed strolling through Walmart with a military style rifle on his shoulder Republican or Democrat?

Watch yet another prick with an AR-15 shoot a bunch of schoolkids. Republican or Democrat?

See a Nazi or KKK rally. Republican or Democrat?

Trans kid wants to use the school bathroom who makes a fuss?
Yep, it's Republicans worried about other peoples business.

Somebody has got to stand up for people's rights. For everybody's rights.

It aint Republicans. Except the right not to pay taxes. They all over that one.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

Top
#315675 - 09/20/19 04:03 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Good points. Like I said, watching Democrats at war with each is almost as alarming as watching Republicans being at war with poor people.

Yes, Democrats seem to be glued to a kind of corporate oligarchy that overlooks working families. How to get that back...populism isn't the answer.

Medicare for All isn't fleshed out yet. It should be, but it isn't.
I know a few candidates are advocating the end of private insurance, but I also know that in the end we're probably going to wind up with a hybrid.


I think the Democrats have found out that they can with a wink and a nod talk bad about corporations and wall street while still receiving their tens of millions in donations. Did you know Hillary received and spent 1.191 billion to Trump's 646.8 million in 2016?


Yes, it was easy for Trump to trim his campaign expenditures.
Our mainstream media GAVE AWAY over TWO BILLION worth of free airtime to the guy. I'm not even talking about Fox here, I'm talking about all the other guys.

Originally Posted By: perotista

2016 was the first presidential election where the candidate with less money won since 1964 when Goldwater outspent LBJ 16-10 million. A lot of normal Republican money went to Clinton or to no one as they refused to donate to Trump. But Trump was the master of the media hogging the spotlight by being the headliner in all the news reports and calling into all the morning talks shows whether they were for or against him. Trump knew how to utilize the free media where Hillary hid.


So it's not some phenomena, it's the fact that Donald Trump, to HIS CREDIT, knows how to manipulate the news media, and he does.
By the way, I am temporarily from Missouri. You have to show me "Republican money going to Clinton" because I find that hard to believe other than a few fringe characters trying on some "sabo-taaaahge."

Originally Posted By: perotista

I do miss the big tent Democratic Party. But there is no going back. It is my opinion that the Democratic Party has been taken over by white Northeastern and West Coast progressive/liberals more concerned with social issues than the working man, middle class or the average American. The GOP wasn't much interested in them and still isn't.


What version of "big tent" do you mean? The big tent that included a Joe Lieberman who singlehandedly delivered the death blow to the public option, the only thing that would have made the ACA truly "Obamacare"? (and would have made it WORK BETTER by saving more people money)

Or do you miss the big tent that included Joe Biden giving away billions to private corrections by creating a jobs program disguised as "tough on crime" laws?

Was it the big tent that stood by while corporations outsourced at a record pace in the 2000's or the big tent that gave cover to invading Iraq?

None of this makes any sense to me because the above are all Republican positions, so it boils down to whether the Democrats are more like Republicans, or less like Republicans.

We can't BE Republicans. Republicans need to be Republicans.
Democrats need to be LEFT of center, not right of center.

You seem to believe that working families are mostly right of center.
I respectfully disagree, particularly when they're stuck with healthcare and college costs which equal more than a second mortgage payment and new car payment put together and they can't even be secure in knowing that the health insurance will cover them when they need it the most, like if one of them comes down with cancer or something equally serious.

I agree that the Democratic Party message isn't well organized or well directed, but it's campaign season 2020 in the embryonic stage.
Will you actually commit to listening to what Liz Warren really has to say?
I don't mean MSM 30 second sound bites, I mean longer interviews.
We know what Biden wants to say already, and I am sure, as the front runner, you won't miss hearing him.

Relax your standards for just a moment and listen to what Liz has to say, even if you will never ever vote for her.
What I am getting at is, she does appear to be for working families.
At least so far.


No one is asking the Democratic Party to become the Republican Party. I think the Democratic has forgotten its roots, the working men in favor of weird stuff like which bathroom a transgender can use. Being for gay marriage is fine, love should decide not government. Also I'm in all favor of a woman being the only one who decides on abortion or not. Not government. I don't like the religious right much as they want to use government for their agenda. But then again so too does the Democrats. I like individual freedom with the individual having the right to choose what is best for him without a whole lot of government interference or dictates. I do think the Democratic Party has went way too far left, at least for me. I always classified myself as a Goldwater conservative with some of Perot thrown in.

By that I mean being fiscal responsible. Spending no more than what government takes in especially with the huge national debt we have. A balance budget. To get there if we have to cut spending, do it. If we have to raise taxes, do it. With our debt so high, it requires both in my opinion. We have one side who won't raise taxes and the other side who won't cut spending. That leaves me in no man's land.

I also believe in keeping government out of a citizen's private business and lives. This I suppose classifies as small government and enhances individual freedoms. As long as no one is being harmed.

Yes, I liked Joe Lieberman, I like Joe Biden, I like Amy Klobuchar, I liked Hickenlooper who was my first choice. Bullock I like and Gabbard peaks my interest. The rest, I haven't much use for. I'm not that freaken far left.

The big tent went away by the 1980's. The conservative wing of the Democrats had migrated for the most part to the Republicans of Reagan. The liberals of the GOP to the Democratic Party. Since 1980's with both parties moving further and further left and right, they started losing their moderates, the folks in the middle, the center ideological wise, the center left and center right. We'll never have a political party to accommodate most folks like the big tent did. Each party is too busy trying to placate the extremes of left and right.

If you look at party affiliation today, 29% Democratic, 27% Republican, 40% independent with independents on the rise. Why? Both parties don't represent middle America any more. By middle American I'm not talking geographically, I'm talking ideological wise.

I don't think either party recognizes how far left and right they have moved. That the hard core that is left in both parties think they're mainstream when they're not.

Let's face it, it's Biden, Warren and Sanders, one of those three will be the Democratic nominee. I don't think it will be Biden. Biden is too moderate for the today's Democratic Party. It will be Warren or Sanders, probably Warren who isn't very attractive to independents, but is very attractive to Democrats. The Democrats ignored America as a whole back in 2016. In February of 2016 a poll showed 56% of all Americans wanted the Democrats to nominate someone else other than Hillary. The Democrats ignored America as a whole which was their right. Will they do that again?
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315677 - 09/20/19 04:17 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: NW Ponderer]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
It's hard for me to lament the loss of the "big tent" when Biden, Bullock, Tester, Klobuchar, Tim Ryan and Tulsi Gabbard (I could go on) are part of the party, or claim that it is not the party of the working class... compared to the Republicans?! Really?!

It's just that the middle has moved so far right - or really, that the right has moved so far right, that we don't recognize moderates anymore. I can find moderates in the Democratic party, but what was left of moderates in the Republican party are making for the exits. Hence my "Where are the conservatives" thread.

But back to the NRA...now there is a moderate voice!


Bullock, Klobuchar, Gabbard don't stand a snowball's chance in Hades of even coming close to the nomination. Look at who the Democrat's are supporting.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls...ation-6730.html

Klobuchar 1.5%, Gabbard 1.0%, Bullock 0.4%, No support for those moderates within the Democratic Party. None are far left enough. They belong to the Democratic Party only because the GOP is way too far right for a moderate of their stature and there are only two major political parties.

We need a viable third party for Americans not to the extreme left or right. We have a situation today where the Democratic Party represents approximately 30% of all Americans, the GOP close to 30% of all Americans with the remainder not being represented or having a political party to call home. They're forced to bounce back and forth between the hard left and the hard right.

We'll elected G.H.W. Bush, then Bill Clinton, then G.W. Bush, then Obama, then Trump trying to get some movement toward the middle. We gave the House to the democrats in 2006, then to the Republicans in 2010 and now back to the democrats in 2018. Hoping for some moderation. None is to be had with either major party. Just the extremes.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315680 - 09/20/19 07:33 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14335
Loc: Whittier, California
If Liz Warren is considered "far left" then what was Teddy Roosevelt considered as? How about his grandson FDR? Were they both far left also?
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

Top
#315683 - 09/21/19 03:00 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9475
Loc: One of the Mexicos
FDR was Teddy's 5th cousin. Eleanor was Teddy's niece.


I don't think we are seeing the R and D parties drifting farther into their corners away from any ideological "center".

On the right, I see a descent into deep selfishness, greed, and disrespect - lies and lack of ethics are the tools of the trade. The few remaining moderate conservatives are standing outside holding their private parts saying, "Those aren't true conservatives". True, but they are the ones in charge, and they are the functional right-wing, and they are evil, destructive imbeciles.

On the left, I see a recent history of weak willed politicians who have been first trying to have influence by playing the game of the right (which they are not very good at) while mumbling about doing good things if they ever get in power again (see example: Joe Biden). They are standing around holding their private parts saying, "It's not fair!" True, but the mistake is letting the corrupt right make up the rules of the game.

The upstarts being branded on the left as extremists appear to me to be trying to identify the problems of our country, and the world, and to come up with solutions and plans to address them. That doesn't mean that their plans are necessarily good or workable, but it's a hell of a lot better than ignoring that there are serious problems and obstructing progress towards fixing them. As Jeffery indicates, they are not the most left of anybody in American history - they are not even lefter than Teddy Roosevelt (a Republican) on many of the most important issues.

BTW, that's what progressivism means to me - progress on finding solutions. People like me don't get our progressive views out of a box, we are thinking of them for ourselves. Maybe some of them align with previous progressive ideas, some don't. Let me point out that just because something has been "proven" to not work doesn't mean that it won't work with a few tweaks. For example, our system of making biochar, a continuous feed TLUD, was declared by two of the top experts in the field in 2010 to be impossible - it can't be done. They are now eating crow and recognizing that it's not only possible, it has solved many of the technical problems with automated mass production of biochar and associated energy recovery.

Perhaps the new political movement should not be identified as being on one hand or the other. Let's stop putting every idea and action into neatly labelled boxes that are already full of worn out ideologies.


_________________________
You can’t solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

Top
#315684 - 09/21/19 03:19 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
If Liz Warren is considered "far left" then what was Teddy Roosevelt considered as? How about his grandson FDR? Were they both far left also?


A lot of this depends on one's political philosophy. TR was in an entirely different era and became president due to McKinley's assassination. If McKinley hadn't been assassinated would the voters have elected TR in 1904 if he hadn't been president already? Being TR was placed in the VP slot by the Republican Party to get him out of the way, he probably wouldn't even have been nominated. They just wanted him out of the governorship.

FDR was different, but again without the great depression he probably would never have become president. Again a complete different era. There's plenty of debate whether all the stuff FDR did to get America out of the depression helped or hurt in its longevity. But what FDR did was give everyone hope, which in my opinion makes the debate of helped or hurt irrelevant which is still today very much determined by partisan lines. FDR was invaluable, but like TR would never have become president without outside events.

Is Warren too far left, she is to me. Warren vs. Trump, third party vote against both. Biden vs. Trump, Biden. Klobuchar vs. Trump, klobuchar. Bullock vs. Trump, Bullock. The rest I don't know. What I do know, Trump won't get my vote. But that automatically doesn't mean the Democrat will. 54% of all independents disliked and didn't want neither Trump nor Clinton to become their next president.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-...candidates.aspx

Yet all but 12% chose one or the other. Lesser of two evils, sure. The least worst candidate, yep. I would have loved to see those 54% of independents who disliked and didn't want neither one vote their convictions. Independents made up 40% of the electorate in November of 2016, but only 31% of those who actually voted. A whole bunch stayed home whether than choose between two dislikes.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315687 - 09/21/19 03:59 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17116
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
[L]et us please dispense with this "generic Democrat" big tent nonsense because while the arithmetic may or may not tally that way, when it's time to go to the polls, apparently people don't always vote the way they SAY they will otherwise Gore would have been POTUS, Kerry would have been POTUS and Hillary would be POTUS now.
I feel compelled to note that in two of those three instances, more people voted for them than the other "winning" candidate. (That kinda undercuts your point, my friend.)

I think it does illustrate, though, that distribution of moderates/progressives is not uniform. AOC would have no chance of winning outside of a few specific Districts, and Klobuchar wouldn't have a chance in most of NYC - forget Tester or Bullock! Trump's success was a fluke, but there is an underlying defect in the process (that point really belongs in an Electoral College thread, which I should start - or did I?). Distribution of political viewpoints is not geographically or culturally uniform. BTW, not all of my exemplars were presidential candidates (although there are nearly that many Democrats running).

There is a vast array of political viewpoints in our nation. That's the conceit of patch.com, Pew Research and political spectrum analyses:
I'm just of the view that there are more moderates in the Democratic party than the Republican. Also, all of the liberals and progressives. wink I don't think any of us knows where the center of the party is, frankly, including most of the presidential candidates.

Although I am progressive, I am a moderate progressive (yes, there is such an animal). Indeed, I think there are a few of us here that would fall into that category. Even if I had hair, it wouldn't be on fire, but I am moved to take action in my own community, and the larger community as well. Ironically (given the topic of this thread), I think there are a good deal of "moderates" in the NRA as well. But, perhaps like the Republican party itself, the membership's views are not reflected in the leadership's views. Maybe that is the problem with the SF Board's declaration. Is it the NRA that is the terrorists, or merely the leadership?

Top
#315689 - 09/21/19 05:50 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: NW Ponderer]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 131
If I may deal with final polling, considering the final polls have a margin of error of plus or minus three points.
2016 final polls 46-42 Hillary, actual results 48-46 Hillary, well within the margin of error.
2012 final polls, 49-46 Obama, actual results 51-47 Obama, again within the margin of error.
2008 final polls, 53-42 Obama, actual results 53-46 Obama. Obama's eight point margin vs. 11 in the final polls was within the margin of error, plus or minus 3 points.
2004 final polls, 49-49 tie, actual results 51-48 Bush, again within the margin of error.
2000 final polls, 48-46 Bush, actual results, a 48-48 tie with Gore receiving 48.4 to Bush's 48.9. Again well within the margin of error.
1996 final polls, 52-41 Bill Clinton, actual results, 49-41 Bill Clinton. Again within the margin of error.

And so on, on back. I don't think folks take into account the margin of error in the polls. Sure it's in the fine print. What the margin of error means is the poll has a 95% chance of being accurate, plus or minus 3 points.

What the polls can't take into account, just guess at is turnout. They tell us how all Americans feel or are likely to vote. but only on average 55% do vote.

Mr. Haas mentioned Gore, Kerry and Hillary. Let's look at turnout. In 2000 the Democrats had a 6 point advantage over Republicans in party affiliation, but only a four point advantage in actual turnout. 2004 the Democrats had a 4 point advantage in party affiliation, yet among those who turned out was tied at 37% each. 2016 Democrats were back up to a six point advantage but only a 3 point advantage in among those who actually turned out to vote.

The thing is in those three elections, the GOP had a higher percentage of its base turn out than the Democrats negating the bigger party's advantage in over all party affiliation.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315741 - 09/22/19 06:07 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: NW Ponderer]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
[L]et us please dispense with this "generic Democrat" big tent nonsense because while the arithmetic may or may not tally that way, when it's time to go to the polls, apparently people don't always vote the way they SAY they will otherwise Gore would have been POTUS, Kerry would have been POTUS and Hillary would be POTUS now.
I feel compelled to note that in two of those three instances, more people voted for them than the other "winning" candidate. (That kinda undercuts your point, my friend.)

I think it does illustrate, though, that distribution of moderates/progressives is not uniform. AOC would have no chance of winning outside of a few specific Districts, and Klobuchar wouldn't have a chance in most of NYC - forget Tester or Bullock! Trump's success was a fluke, but there is an underlying defect in the process (that point really belongs in an Electoral College thread, which I should start - or did I?). Distribution of political viewpoints is not geographically or culturally uniform. BTW, not all of my exemplars were presidential candidates (although there are nearly that many Democrats running).

There is a vast array of political viewpoints in our nation. That's the conceit of patch.com, Pew Research and political spectrum analyses:
I'm just of the view that there are more moderates in the Democratic party than the Republican. Also, all of the liberals and progressives. wink I don't think any of us knows where the center of the party is, frankly, including most of the presidential candidates.

Although I am progressive, I am a moderate progressive (yes, there is such an animal). Indeed, I think there are a few of us here that would fall into that category. Even if I had hair, it wouldn't be on fire, but I am moved to take action in my own community, and the larger community as well. Ironically (given the topic of this thread), I think there are a good deal of "moderates" in the NRA as well. But, perhaps like the Republican party itself, the membership's views are not reflected in the leadership's views. Maybe that is the problem with the SF Board's declaration. Is it the NRA that is the terrorists, or merely the leadership?


I think you're were right about more moderates within the Democratic Party, at least until 2006 or after. Then something changed. 2006 was the last year independents were at 30% of the electorate. I view most independents ideological wise as being somewhere in-between the two major parties on the political spectrum. Although you do have some way to the right of the GOP and way to the left of the Democrats.

Since 2006 independents have shot up to 41% if one believes Gallup. Since 2006 Democrats have dropped from 35% down to 30%, Republicans from 30% down to 26%. As of 31 July 2019 anyway. Although the figures don't break it down to moderates, conservatives and liberals. It is my opinion since the Democrats got rid of their conservatives and the GOP its liberals. That since 2006 moderates are leaving both parties. That the major parties have moved too far left or right for them.

Now this may be my view of those in congress, not sure about the rank and file. In 2006 when the Democrats took back the house, they elected a lot of liberal Democrats who replaced moderate Republicans. In 2010 the reverse happened, conservative Republicans replaced moderate Democrats. Of the 63 seats lost by the Democrats that year, 51 were held by blue dog democrats.

Now 2018 might have seen a resurgence in the blue dogs or moderate Democratic congressional critters. Especially since 31 of the 40 districts won by the Democrats were districts Trump carried in 2016. But the leadership remains far left. Perhaps Pelosi realizes when it comes to impeachment, all the Republicans need is to win back 19 of those 31 districts in 2020 to regain the house. This could be one reason she opposes impeachment.

I think if one or the other party would move more toward the center political ideological wise. That party would win back some of the moderates they lost which became independents.That party would become the dominate party for the next 20-30 years.

Perhaps back to the time or era from FDR to Reagan when the Democrats average 45% of the electorate to 27% for the GOP. Back to a time when the Democrats controlled the House for 40 straight years and 56 out of 60. My two cents anyway.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315749 - 09/22/19 10:26 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14335
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
[L]et us please dispense with this "generic Democrat" big tent nonsense because while the arithmetic may or may not tally that way, when it's time to go to the polls, apparently people don't always vote the way they SAY they will otherwise Gore would have been POTUS, Kerry would have been POTUS and Hillary would be POTUS now.


I feel compelled to note that in two of those three instances, more people voted for them than the other "winning" candidate. (That kinda undercuts your point, my friend.)



It would undercut my point if they had actually wound up in the White House.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

Top
#315750 - 09/22/19 10:35 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14335
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
If Liz Warren is considered "far left" then what was Teddy Roosevelt considered as? How about his grandson FDR? Were they both far left also?


A lot of this depends on one's political philosophy. TR was in an entirely different era and became president due to McKinley's assassination. If McKinley hadn't been assassinated would the voters have elected TR in 1904 if he hadn't been president already? Being TR was placed in the VP slot by the Republican Party to get him out of the way, he probably wouldn't even have been nominated. They just wanted him out of the governorship.

FDR was different, but again without the great depression he probably would never have become president. Again a complete different era. There's plenty of debate whether all the stuff FDR did to get America out of the depression helped or hurt in its longevity. But what FDR did was give everyone hope, which in my opinion makes the debate of helped or hurt irrelevant which is still today very much determined by partisan lines. FDR was invaluable, but like TR would never have become president without outside events.

Is Warren too far left, she is to me. Warren vs. Trump, third party vote against both. Biden vs. Trump, Biden. Klobuchar vs. Trump, klobuchar. Bullock vs. Trump, Bullock. The rest I don't know. What I do know, Trump won't get my vote. But that automatically doesn't mean the Democrat will. 54% of all independents disliked and didn't want neither Trump nor Clinton to become their next president.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-...candidates.aspx

Yet all but 12% chose one or the other. Lesser of two evils, sure. The least worst candidate, yep. I would have loved to see those 54% of independents who disliked and didn't want neither one vote their convictions. Independents made up 40% of the electorate in November of 2016, but only 31% of those who actually voted. A whole bunch stayed home whether than choose between two dislikes.



What's an "outside event"?
Of course FDR wouldn't have been elected had it not been for the Great Depression. Politics is based mostly on events.
The Depression wasn't an OUTSIDE event, it was just an event, an event so profound that it changed people's thinking.

Quote:
“Mr. Hoover was an engineer. He knew that water trickled down. Put it uphill and let it go and it will reach the driest little spot. But he didn’t know that money trickled up. Give it to the people at the bottom and the people at the top will have it before night anyhow. But it will at least have passed through the poor fellow’s hands.”


That was Will Rogers, talking about the 1932 election and what contributed to FDR's win.
Weekly Article #518 (Nov. 27, 1932)

So an event changed the way folks think about their leadership in Washington. Some call it an outside event. Outside of what, politics?
Nothing like that is outside of politics, it IS politics.

And we've had forty years of trickle down economics all over again.
Result: Stock market at record highs, record number of billionaires and a rank and file all struggling to work their two or even three jobs to make ends meet. The economy is supposedly roaring but six in ten Americans cannot meet a four hundred dollar emergency.

That's an INSIDE event, right inside one's home and one's family.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

Top
#315754 - 09/23/19 01:37 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
If Liz Warren is considered "far left" then what was Teddy Roosevelt considered as? How about his grandson FDR? Were they both far left also?


A lot of this depends on one's political philosophy. TR was in an entirely different era and became president due to McKinley's assassination. If McKinley hadn't been assassinated would the voters have elected TR in 1904 if he hadn't been president already? Being TR was placed in the VP slot by the Republican Party to get him out of the way, he probably wouldn't even have been nominated. They just wanted him out of the governorship.

FDR was different, but again without the great depression he probably would never have become president. Again a complete different era. There's plenty of debate whether all the stuff FDR did to get America out of the depression helped or hurt in its longevity. But what FDR did was give everyone hope, which in my opinion makes the debate of helped or hurt irrelevant which is still today very much determined by partisan lines. FDR was invaluable, but like TR would never have become president without outside events.

Is Warren too far left, she is to me. Warren vs. Trump, third party vote against both. Biden vs. Trump, Biden. Klobuchar vs. Trump, klobuchar. Bullock vs. Trump, Bullock. The rest I don't know. What I do know, Trump won't get my vote. But that automatically doesn't mean the Democrat will. 54% of all independents disliked and didn't want neither Trump nor Clinton to become their next president.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-...candidates.aspx

Yet all but 12% chose one or the other. Lesser of two evils, sure. The least worst candidate, yep. I would have loved to see those 54% of independents who disliked and didn't want neither one vote their convictions. Independents made up 40% of the electorate in November of 2016, but only 31% of those who actually voted. A whole bunch stayed home whether than choose between two dislikes.



What's an "outside event"?
Of course FDR wouldn't have been elected had it not been for the Great Depression. Politics is based mostly on events.
The Depression wasn't an OUTSIDE event, it was just an event, an event so profound that it changed people's thinking.

Quote:
“Mr. Hoover was an engineer. He knew that water trickled down. Put it uphill and let it go and it will reach the driest little spot. But he didn’t know that money trickled up. Give it to the people at the bottom and the people at the top will have it before night anyhow. But it will at least have passed through the poor fellow’s hands.”


That was Will Rogers, talking about the 1932 election and what contributed to FDR's win.
Weekly Article #518 (Nov. 27, 1932)

So an event changed the way folks think about their leadership in Washington. Some call it an outside event. Outside of what, politics?
Nothing like that is outside of politics, it IS politics.

And we've had forty years of trickle down economics all over again.
Result: Stock market at record highs, record number of billionaires and a rank and file all struggling to work their two or even three jobs to make ends meet. The economy is supposedly roaring but six in ten Americans cannot meet a four hundred dollar emergency.

That's an INSIDE event, right inside one's home and one's family.


I remember another quote by Will Rogers, "I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat."
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#316432 - 10/08/19 03:40 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17116
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
[L]et us please dispense with this "generic Democrat" big tent nonsense because while the arithmetic may or may not tally that way, when it's time to go to the polls, apparently people don't always vote the way they SAY they will otherwise Gore would have been POTUS, Kerry would have been POTUS and Hillary would be POTUS now.


I feel compelled to note that in two of those three instances, more people voted for them than the other "winning" candidate. (That kinda undercuts your point, my friend.)



It would undercut my point if they had actually wound up in the White House.
The principle of democracy is that the person who gets the most votes better represents the mood/ political view of the voting community. Using that metric, in 2000 and 2016 the political views of the country were better represented by Gore and Clinton, respectively. I think that is also reflected in 2018. On a national basis, the country is more liberal than conservative. Polls on particular subjects support this conclusion. But voting is not conducted on a national basis. Hence this disconnect. Neither Congress nor the electoral college reflect the actual political make-up of the nation as a whole, but the geographical mal-distribution of political power.

Top
#316443 - 10/09/19 01:20 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1604
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
[L]et us please dispense with this "generic Democrat" big tent nonsense because while the arithmetic may or may not tally that way, when it's time to go to the polls, apparently people don't always vote the way they SAY they will otherwise Gore would have been POTUS, Kerry would have been POTUS and Hillary would be POTUS now.


I feel compelled to note that in two of those three instances, more people voted for them than the other "winning" candidate. (That kinda undercuts your point, my friend.)



It would undercut my point if they had actually wound up in the White House.
The principle of democracy is that the person who gets the most votes better represents the mood/ political view of the voting community. Using that metric, in 2000 and 2016 the political views of the country were better represented by Gore and Clinton, respectively. I think that is also reflected in 2018. On a national basis, the country is more liberal than conservative. Polls on particular subjects support this conclusion. But voting is not conducted on a national basis. Hence this disconnect. Neither Congress nor the electoral college reflect the actual political make-up of the nation as a whole, but the geographical mal-distribution of political power.
That is why we have a republican government. We have the House of Representatives which reflects the popular view and the Senate which reflects the status quo. Just as the Senate is one of the Constitutional checks on the House of Representatives the Electoral College is a Constitutional check on the popular vote in a Presidential election.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#316464 - 10/09/19 03:08 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17116
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
That is why we have a republican government. We have the House of Representatives which reflects the popular view and the Senate which reflects the status quo. Just as the Senate is one of the Constitutional checks on the House of Representatives the Electoral College is a Constitutional check on the popular vote in a Presidential election.
The problem, though, is they don't actually represent the popular view. The House is skewed by nearly two dozen seats.
Quote:
Despite its name, the House of Representatives is not so representative.

As the chart below shows, the total vote differential between the two parties for elections to the House in 2016 was 1.2 percent. But the difference in the number of seats is 10.8 percent, giving a total of 21 extra seats to Republicans.
Misrepresentation in the House of Representatives (Brookings); The Congressional Map Has A Record-Setting Bias Against Democrats (FiveThirtyEight).
Quote:
In the last few decades, Democrats have expanded their advantages in California and New York — states with huge urban centers that combined to give Clinton a 6 million vote edge, more than twice her national margin. But those two states elect only 4 percent of the Senate. Meanwhile, Republicans have made huge advances in small rural states — think Arkansas, North and South Dakota, Iowa, Louisiana, Montana and West Virginia — that wield disproportionate power in the upper chamber compared to their populations.

We can quantify the partisan bias of Congress over time by measuring the distance between each national presidential result and each year’s presidential result in the median House and Senate seats. So in 2008, for example, Barack Obama won the popular vote by 7.3 percentage points, but Democrats won the median House seat by 4.4 points — a pro-GOP bias of 2.9 points.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 ... 9 10 >

Who's Online
1 registered (Greger), 16 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Snarky_Politics, Moot, Ikari, perotista, ttwtt78640
6282 Registered Users
A2