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#314825 - 09/04/19 05:15 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17710
Loc: Florida
Quote:
The WPA and CCC were clearly socialist endeavors

There was nothing socialist about them. There was no agenda for government to own the means of production. Men needed work, work needed done. Government was the entity capable of getting the two together. It was an emergency program and it worked.


Edited by Greger (09/04/19 05:19 PM)
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#314827 - 09/04/19 05:25 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10771
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Ah, yes, the big "S" definition. But I think the government did "own" the means of production.

Timberline Lodge
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“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#314828 - 09/04/19 05:37 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10771
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Greger
Men needed work, work needed done. Government was the entity capable of getting the two together. It was an emergency program and it worked.

That's impossible - there was too much government interference!! If I remember right, it's what caused the Great Depression, and it was the Free Market Capitalist enterprise of WWII that solved the economic problems that began in the 1920's.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#314830 - 09/04/19 06:43 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17485
Thanks, Sen HR, for the lengthy and well-developed response to my query:
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Okay, that's a start. Please explain how your conservatism is different.
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
I am a member of the Republican Party for the lack of better one. Ideology is not important to the two major political parties. Their reason for existence is to win elections, legally if possible and illegally as long as they don't get caught.
I'm also happy to see that acknowledged. I am more comfortable among Democrats for much the same reason.

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The lost Cause was lost before Fort Sumter. When those in the southern states quoted the Anti-Federalists, who were the real Federalists, they were talking about how our Constitution was both a federal and a national one. The federal part was where the state government was in control of what happened in their state. The national part was when the central government was in charge, it was in charge of foreign relations and related matters but very little else.
I agree with the thrust of this, if not all of the details.

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Those supporters of the Lost Cause twisted (hijacked) the idea of states rights to support their economic system that was based on slavery. In doing so they rejected the idea that all men are created equal.
WOOT!
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
What I seek is a return to the days when our Constitution was both a federal and a national one while remaining true to the idea that all men are created equal.
Profound, and succinct.
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The Federalists wanted a strong central government as put forth by the Virginia Plan. The Anti-Federalists didn't and they proposed the New Jersey Plan. Their disagreement was settled by the Connecticut Compromise which made our Constitution a federal and a national one. The Federalists didn't get the strong central government they wanted and the Anti-Federalists didn't get the mild revision of the Articles of Confederation that they wanted. Which means when it first went into operation we had a small limited government. It has grown due to the fact of human nature that people lust after power. A return to the small limited government we once had is indeed impossible. It is for the reasons you mentioned. What I advocate is to reduce the size of our government as mush as is possible. Return our government to being a Constitution that is both federal and national instead of the predominately national one we now have.
Thanks, my friend. Much food for thought.
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#314831 - 09/04/19 06:50 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17485
Originally Posted By: logtroll
I have always admired the Works Progress Administration and the Civilian Conservation Corps. The things created and accomplished during that time inspire me.
Woot! I am a great, great admirer of them as well. I have much the same feeling about the National Highway System that Eisenhower established.

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#314832 - 09/04/19 06:53 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10771
Loc: One of the Mexicos
It's so sad that such things can only be had through Free Market Capitalism. frown
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#314838 - 09/04/19 10:05 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: logtroll
[quote=Greger]Men needed work, work needed done. Government was the entity capable of getting the two together. It was an emergency program and it worked.

Originally Posted By: logtroll
That's impossible - there was too much government interference!! If I remember right, it's what caused the Great Depression, and it was the Free Market Capitalist enterprise of WWII that solved the economic problems that began in the 1920's.

Government interference was the cause of the Great Depression and that interference was bipartisan. One way our government interfered was when Republicans passed and Pres. Hoover signed into law the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act of 1930. The authors of the bill were Republicans. (This is a long article.)
Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act of 1930
American involvement in WWII did not solve the economic problems that started in the 1920's. Those problems as the article states were also caused by the interference of the Federal Reserve Bank, a quasi-official part our government.
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#314840 - 09/04/19 10:26 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17485
I think it is important to point out that the article is the product of a libertarian political think tank. I have also cited to FEE, occasionally (usually to avoid complaints about biased sources), so there is some merit to their analyses - in addition to bias. In this case, that bias is apparent. It is a broad consensus of economists that Smoot-Hawley was bad policy and very badly timed. But it was not the cause of the depression. Bank policies didn't help, but again, were not the cause of the depression. It wasn't government intervention at all, but speculation and cyclical business realities. Greed and corruption, mostly.

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#314842 - 09/04/19 10:42 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17710
Loc: Florida
In socialist studies they taught us the Lascaiz faire policies of the Hoover era were largely responsible...in other words a lack of government interference was to be blamed.
Was this a leftist lie from the start? A myth?
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#314843 - 09/04/19 10:44 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10771
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
It wasn't government intervention at all, but speculation and cyclical business realities. Greed and corruption, mostly.

In brief, insufficiently regulated free market capitalism, which tends to default to greed and corruption.

I wonder if anyone takes issue with the effects of the WPA and CCC? I'm pretty sure that wasn't an example of Capitalism...

And while WWII wasn't a free market capitalist endeavor, I'd argue that the War Machine was very good for stimulating the economy.
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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