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#315202 - 09/11/19 09:48 PM What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government?
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Because our government is run by human beings it is not, and never will be, perfect. There will always be corruption and fraud. My concern is how can we reduce it as much as possible? This is being asked not to point fingers or blame either party but to try find a bipartisan solution to a bipartisan problem.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315205 - 09/11/19 11:30 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 113
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Because our government is run by human beings it is not, and never will be, perfect. There will always be corruption and fraud. My concern is how can we reduce it as much as possible? This is being asked not to point fingers or blame either party but to try find a bipartisan solution to a bipartisan problem.


The only way I can think of is to get money out of politics which isn't going to happen. Besides since money is speech, it would be against the 1st amendment. I think most of the corruption comes from trying to placate those who donate their millions to the candidates and political parties. Our representatives in Washington are more beholding to those who donate or should I use the word invest in our politics and elections.

Few of our politicians us their position to enhance them financially. Yes, some do, but not most. Most have to keep their mega money investors, lobbyists, special interests, corporations, wall street firms happy so they will continue to invest in them. They expect a return on their investment, they get it.

To keep this short, I see of now way to hem in corruption and the special influence among our elected leaders money buys.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#315206 - 09/12/19 12:09 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41804
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
B...This is being asked not to point fingers or blame either party...

Heaven forbid that you ever call-out Republicans for their misdeeds - you somehow need to contort facts and bring in the Dems for the ride too. coffee
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#315207 - 09/12/19 12:10 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: perotista]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41804
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: perotista
The only way I can think of is to get money out of politics which isn't going to happen. Besides since money is speech, it would be against the 1st amendment.

Citizens United was the most asinine SCOTUS so far this century. Hmm
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#315208 - 09/12/19 12:29 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: pdx rick]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 113
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: perotista
The only way I can think of is to get money out of politics which isn't going to happen. Besides since money is speech, it would be against the 1st amendment.

Citizens United was the most asinine SCOTUS so far this century. Hmm


Until the 2016 presidential election where Hillary raised and spent 1.191 billion to Trump's 646.8 million every presidential candidate who raised and spent the most won since 1964. In 1964 . Outside of 2016, 1964 where Goldwater outspent LBJ 16 million to 9 million.

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/graphics/2016-presidential-campaign-fundraising/

The most money raised and spent by a presidential candidate.
2016 Hillary Clinton 1.191 billion
2008 Obama 760.4 million
2012 Obama 737.1 million
2012 Romney 483.1 million
2004 G.W. Bush 355.0 million
2004 Kerry 332.7 million
2008 McCain 239.7 million

Money usually talks big. But not in 2016 or 1964.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#315209 - 09/12/19 12:55 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: pdx rick]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
B...This is being asked not to point fingers or blame either party...

Heaven forbid that you ever call-out Republicans for their misdeeds - you somehow need to contort facts and bring in the Dems for the ride too. coffee

When have you ever criticized the Democrats, pdx rick? Hell, you even edited a sentence I wrote to hide the fact that I said this is a BIPARTISAN problem!

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
This is being asked not to point fingers or blame either party but to try find a bipartisan solution to a bipartisan problem.


If anyone here refuses to look at their side it is you. You are a yuge part of the problem. You are part of the problem because you don't remember that several times I blamed REPUBLICANS, by name, for helping start the Great Depression. Just to refresh your memory it was Sen. Smoot R-UT, Rep. Hawley R-OR and REPUBLICAN President Herbert Hoover who are responsible for the Great Depression!

When pdx rick are you going to criticize any Democrats?
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315210 - 09/12/19 01:06 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41804
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
When have you ever criticized the Democrats, pdx rick?

Guess you were not around in the Fall of 2016 when I was criticizing Hillary Clinton for being a lying sociopath - although she pales in comparison to "Bed Bugs" Trump's whoppers.


Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Hell, you even edited a sentence I wrote to hide the fact that I said this is a BIPARTISAN problem!

I edited one of your sentences? Link, please. smile
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#315212 - 09/12/19 02:28 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: pdx rick]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
When have you ever criticized the Democrats, pdx rick?

Guess you were not around in the Fall of 2016 when I was criticizing Hillary Clinton for being a lying sociopath - although she pales in comparison to "Bed Bugs" Trump's whoppers.

No, I wasn't around for your criticism of Hillary Clinton. However there are plenty of Democrats who deserve to be criticized. Joe Biden for example could be criticized for the "great' speeches he gives. There are others if you make the effort to find them.

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Hell, you even edited a sentence I wrote to hide the fact that I said this is a BIPARTISAN problem!

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
I edited one of your sentences? Link, please. smile

There is no need for a link. It is italicized in a quote box in my comment you replied to. In case you missed, which you apparently did, here it is. I have again italicized it in a quote box to make sure you see it.

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
This is being asked not to point fingers or blame either party but to try find a bipartisan solution to a bipartisan problem.

_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315213 - 09/12/19 03:33 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Sometimes we call corrupt Democrats NeoLiberals. They are in thrall to corporate interests rather than the interests of the entire population.

There's a reason we call them public servants and not corporate lickspittles.

I'm not generally in favor of term limits but it seems the "old boy" crowd has gotten a bit out of hand these past few years and perhaps term limits might help.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#315214 - 09/12/19 07:25 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41804
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Joe Biden for example could be criticized for the "great' speeches he gives.

Here's just a sample of your orange clown President "Bone Spurs" gaffes:
  • Windmills cause cancer
  • Airports seized during the Revolutionary War
  • Oranges of the ďRusserĒ investigation.
  • Raking the forest to prevent forest fires
  • Calling Air Force One - Aircraft One
  • Sharpie on a NOAA map
Not only did just learn which parent Barron probably inherited his Autism from, we also just learned that people is glass houses ought not throw stones.

smile
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#315220 - 09/12/19 11:31 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17089
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Because our government is run by human beings it is not, and never will be, perfect. There will always be corruption and fraud. My concern is how can we reduce it as much as possible? This is being asked not to point fingers or blame either party but to try find a bipartisan solution to a bipartisan problem.

Churn. We need to remove the current Republican and Democratic leadership and replace them with better leaders. Let's start by removing all the Republicans and see how that works. There's 90% of the problem. I mean that sincerely. Trump is deeply, deeply flawed in every possible respect, and he has surrounded himself with the worst swamp creatures the country has ever seen. The Republican House and Senate are just as bad (and where a lot of Trump's swamp creatures came from). Hard to place the blame on Democrats as they have been out of power, so it will be harder to determine who has to go.

One huge obstacle to reform is the corrupt Supreme Court majority. The number of really, really bad and purely partisan decisions is growing rapidly (including yesterday). As examples, Rucho v. Common Cause, Citizens United, Shelby County v. Holder, Bush v. Gore. One the current court, "Whatever idiosyncratic legal views Gorsuch and Kavanaugh might otherwise hold, Trumpís Supreme Court nominees both appear firmly committed to one of the Roberts Courtís great projects: maximizing conservative structural advantages in the American political system." The Supreme Court Steps to the Right (New Republic). At least 2 members are just unsuited for the post - Thomas, and Alito (and probably Gorsuch). But, they can't be replaced until Trump and Pence are gone and a Democrat is in office, so... there is that.

There's no doubt we are in for a really, really rough patch over the next decade. Replacement will take time. The biggest suggestion: Vote blue, no matter who. The rot goes all the way to the States. The biggest flaw with the OP is the false equivalence concept that "it is bipartisan." While nominally true, the bulk of the problem is on one side of the aisle. As long as money is the driving force, though, it will continue to be the primary issue.

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#315221 - 09/12/19 11:53 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1720
ĎBlue no matter whoí.
What a brain dead way to vote.
I would love to examine the accomplishments of the Democrats when they were In power. That tends to be a sore subject here. Usually dismissed with a Ďyes, but republicans!...í
Money is not speech. Money is power. Those that want to kiss up to power will insist itís the former and not the latter.
Thereís the Ďfree and fair electionsí amendment being worked on at the grass roots level in much the same way as most every other Ďimpossibleí amendment has gotten passed.
At the street level, it has insane popular support but like most popular ideas, it dies in state house committees by the corporate state opposed to it.
To me, the fight is between democracy and corporate oligarchy with democracy trailing in these late innings. Corruption is how the corporate state buys off democracy.


Edited by chunkstyle (09/12/19 11:55 AM)

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#315223 - 09/12/19 12:43 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41804
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
... The Republican House and Senate are just as bad (and where a lot of Trump's swamp creatures came from)...

I see things as Trump is using Fox News as an employment Temp Agency. Hmm
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#315224 - 09/12/19 12:48 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17089
Oh, my brain is working fine. Especially those higher logical functions. wink How's that third-party thing working out?

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#315225 - 09/12/19 12:49 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: chunkstyle]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41804
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
...Money is not speech. Money is power. Those that want to kiss up to power will insist itís the former and not the latter...

Freshman Congresswoman Katie Porter (D-CA) states in an interview that she was surprised to realize just how much Congress is set-up for and by the wealthy.

I love Katie, I've seen her several times in interviews - she's very smart, but the best part - she's funny and witty. smile
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#315238 - 09/12/19 01:23 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17089
Katie Porter is one of my favorites. Hands down.

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#315240 - 09/12/19 01:33 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Because our government is run by human beings it is not, and never will be, perfect. There will always be corruption and fraud. My concern is how can we reduce it as much as possible? This is being asked not to point fingers or blame either party but to try find a bipartisan solution to a bipartisan problem.

Maybe there could be sanctions on politicians for lying.
_________________________
You canít solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#315241 - 09/12/19 01:45 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Maybe sanctions for corruption and fraud, instead of not being able to indict and prosecute corrupt fraudsters while they are still in office.
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You canít solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#315242 - 09/12/19 01:49 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1720
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Oh, my brain is working fine. Especially those higher logical functions. wink How's that third-party thing working out?


I heard the Green Party doubled its turnout in 2016 and expanded into more states. Iím affiliated with the largest growing unaffiliated and welcome the gutting of the center though.
Howíd 2016 turn out for your center NWP?...

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#315244 - 09/12/19 04:00 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Replacement will take time. The biggest suggestion: Vote blue, no matter who. The rot goes all the way to the States. The biggest flaw with the OP is the false equivalence concept that "it is bipartisan." While nominally true, the bulk of the problem is on one side of the aisle.

To suggest that people vote exclusively for one party will not fix the problem. Denying that your party is responsible will not fix the problem. Blaming our President will not fix the problem.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315245 - 09/12/19 04:10 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2566
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
We need 2 amendments: speech is not money and money is not speech and a corporations is not an individual (claiming that gives stockholders another vote)

Re-write laws for lobbyists. Right now the lobby laws are simply corruptions codified.

Give members of congress back their own expert advisors instead of relying on lobbyists.

Stop selling (based on money raised for party) congressional seats of power.

Mandatory voting.

The Phrase; "If you don't vote you are going to get screwed over and if you can't decide submit a blank ballot" told to school children, every day, from grade school up. The same phrase said, everytime a politician speaks. (perhaps also add the simple fact that the block that votes most consistently is the very rich)

Civics taught to every high school student in some detail.

This particular wishful thinking was kinda fun!

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#315246 - 09/12/19 04:27 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
To suggest that people vote exclusively for one party will not fix the problem. Denying that your party is responsible will not fix the problem. Blaming our President will not fix the problem.

Free market politics won't fix the problem either, in fact that's the main problem - not enough controls.
_________________________
You canít solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#315250 - 09/12/19 05:38 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
To suggest that people vote exclusively for one party will not fix the problem. Denying that your party is responsible will not fix the problem. Blaming our President will not fix the problem.

Free market politics won't fix the problem either, in fact that's the main problem - not enough controls.
Since a corrupt government is the problem giving that government more power will not solve the problem.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315253 - 09/12/19 06:16 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Hunnnh??

I thought we were interested in fixing the corruption (which is the people in the government). Now you are saying that it can't be fixed because the people in the government (the government) are corrupt?

Trying to discuss anything with you is like being on a merry-go-round...
_________________________
You canít solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#315254 - 09/12/19 06:28 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Hunnnh??

I thought we were interested in fixing the corruption (which is the people in the government). Now you are saying that it can't be fixed because the people in the government (the government) are corrupt?

Trying to discuss anything with you is like being on a merry-go-round...

The people in our government are corrupt. They are corrupt because they have too much power. To give people who are corrupt because they have too much power more power will not solve the problem that they are corrupt.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315255 - 09/12/19 06:39 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
You funny!! wink
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You canít solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#315256 - 09/12/19 06:42 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
_________________________
You canít solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#315257 - 09/12/19 06:42 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 468
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Hunnnh??

I thought we were interested in fixing the corruption (which is the people in the government). Now you are saying that it can't be fixed because the people in the government (the government) are corrupt?

Trying to discuss anything with you is like being on a merry-go-round...

The people in our government are corrupt. They are corrupt because they have too much power. To give people who are corrupt because they have too much power more power will not solve the problem that they are corrupt.



That is circular logic and total BS.

As one of those people that was in Government and being married to another person in that was in government, I can speak with some authority that 99.9% of the people in government are not corrupt, as you so Trumpianly claim.

Now, if you want to talk about political appointees, using the current crop, then you are probably more right than you know.


Edited by Ujest Shurly (09/12/19 06:45 PM)
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MAGA, impeach Trump.

Vote 2020

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#315261 - 09/12/19 07:56 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
When I speak of our government I am referring to Congress. Members of Congress are corrupt because they need a lot of money to get elected and reelected.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315262 - 09/12/19 08:34 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
I don't think raising campaign funds is generally considered "corruption".

Accepting campaign funds from corporate interest in return for voting how they want you to vote...that's corruption.

Buying/selling stocks when you know your vote will affect their value...that's corruption.

Using your power and influence as a public servant to increase your personal fortune...corruption.

Accepting bribes...corruption.

Almost all corruption has to do with money changing hands for nefarious reasons.

Most of those reasons are related to businesses seeking fewer government controls. Like clean air, clean water, employee compensation, or anything else that might eat into the corporate profits.

So most corruption is simply to further the goals of free market capitalists.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#315263 - 09/12/19 09:15 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Greger
Most of those reasons are related to businesses seeking fewer government controls. Like clean air, clean water, employee compensation, or anything else that might eat into the corporate profits.

So most corruption is simply to further the goals of free market capitalists.

Maybe you can help me to understand how more (enforced) regulations on these corrupt characters would make them more powerful? Hatrack's take on this really confuses me... I need a more calm and rational explanation.
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You canít solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#315264 - 09/12/19 09:24 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Greger]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Greger
I don't think raising campaign funds is generally considered "corruption".

Accepting campaign funds from corporate interest in return for voting how they want you to vote...that's corruption.

Buying/selling stocks when you know your vote will affect their value...that's corruption.

Using your power and influence as a public servant to increase your personal fortune...corruption.

Accepting bribes...corruption.

Almost all corruption has to do with money changing hands for nefarious reasons.

Most of those reasons are related to businesses seeking fewer government controls. Like clean air, clean water, employee compensation, or anything else that might eat into the corporate profits.

So most corruption is simply to further the goals of free market capitalists.
You confuse free market capitalists with rent seeking corporations.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315265 - 09/12/19 09:46 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6838
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I suspect it doesn't matter whether anyone in Congress would be willing to change the laws, especially since, as an example, the Trump DoJ would not file charges against any Republican for committing crimes involving corruption, since they would have to file charges against Mr Trump.

And if you think the solution is to vote them out, consider what KY voters think about their corrupt Senator ... they don't care if he is corrupt. O and that is just the tip of the iceberg of voter sentiment for the Trump regime .... to paraphrase a Trump support ... vote Trump and frak you again 2020

We live in a world where politicians can not spell integrity and apparently most of the voters (especially Trump voters) don't care what crimes THEIR politician commits
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#315271 - 09/13/19 12:36 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Quote:
You confuse free market capitalists with rent seeking corporations.


No Senator, I don't draw a fine line between them to justify man's inhumanity to man. The US Government is a corporatocracy, an oligarchy.
It is ruled by and for the wealthy. Whether they be rent seekers like Trump Org Or multi national conglomerates they're all out to F*ck the working man.

And it isn't working people paying lobbyists and lawyers and anonymous carriers of envelopes full of cash. It's businessmen out to increase their profits by eliminating environmental regulations and paying the least possible amount for labor.

Government has seen clear to make it easy for the wealthy to become more wealthy at the expense of the majority of the population. The corruption at the top is designed to keep it that way.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#315275 - 09/13/19 02:10 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
To answer my own question, since everyone here seems to need a scapegoat for the problem, the solution is simple and there no laws required to make it happen. It isn't to vote all blue or all red. That would only make matters worse, whichever way a person decides to vote. This is the solution. One simple sentence explains it.

DON'T VOTE FOR ANY CONGRESSIONAL INCUMBENTS!

_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315277 - 09/13/19 02:50 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Offline

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Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Well, I certainly won't vote for Trump. Will you?

And I think I can promise that I won't vote for a single incumbent.

All the incumbents on my ballot are Republicans.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#315278 - 09/13/19 03:22 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
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Iím voting for all my Congressional incumbents, and none of them are corrupt, that Iím aware of. And Iíve known two of them for fifteen years. None of them are Republicans.
_________________________
You canít solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#315279 - 09/13/19 05:23 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Replacement will take time. The biggest suggestion: Vote blue, no matter who. The rot goes all the way to the States. The biggest flaw with the OP is the false equivalence concept that "it is bipartisan." While nominally true, the bulk of the problem is on one side of the aisle.

To suggest that people vote exclusively for one party will not fix the problem. Denying that your party is responsible will not fix the problem. Blaming our President will not fix the problem.
That's just nonsense. If the President is the biggest part of the problem, of course he has to be blamed. But Trump is a symptom of the corruption. Its source is the Republican party. That can't be denied or ignored. Denying that your party is responsible will not fix the problem. Pretending that both parties are "equally culpable" is just deception.
_________________________
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Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#315285 - 09/13/19 02:15 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Iím voting for all my Congressional incumbents, and none of them are corrupt, that Iím aware of. And Iíve known two of them for fifteen years. None of them are Republicans.

They might not be corrupt but the system is. All members of the House of Representatives are up for election every two years. The reason for that is to have citizen legislators. People who are in office one or two terms and then back to their regular jobs. Being a member of Congress was not meant to be a career. That is the corruption of which I speak people being Representatives in Congress for decades. When they are in Congress for decades they accumulate power. To keep that power they become dependent on lobbyists for advice and the money to get reelected.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315288 - 09/13/19 02:37 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
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I don't think your solution is practical, or likely to produce the desired result. I think that controlling the money and public access in elections would be more effective. Undoing Citizen's United would be a good start.

You go ahead and elect a new congressman every term. I plan to try to elect the best person for the job. Maybe we'll both be happy that way.
_________________________
You canít solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#315291 - 09/13/19 03:15 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: logtroll
I don't think your solution is practical, or likely to produce the desired result. I think that controlling the money and public access in elections would be more effective. Undoing Citizen's United would be a good start.

You go ahead and elect a new congressman every term. I plan to try to elect the best person for the job. Maybe we'll both be happy that way.

It worked for most of our country's history. What would it hurt to start doing it again? By electing a new Representative every two or four years you take the money out of politics. The money is there because the people who donate the money want to back winners, those who will be in office for as long as possible. The longer a person stays in Congress the power they have. The more power they have makes them the winners who get the big donations. Reduce the longevity in office and you reduce the money in politics.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315293 - 09/13/19 03:21 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
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Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: logtroll
I don't think your solution is practical, or likely to produce the desired result. I think that controlling the money and public access in elections would be more effective. Undoing Citizen's United would be a good start.

You go ahead and elect a new congressman every term. I plan to try to elect the best person for the job. Maybe we'll both be happy that way.

It worked for most of our country's history. What would it hurt to start doing it again? By electing a new Representative every two or four years you take the money out of politics. The money is there because the people who donate the money want to back winners, those who will be in office for as long as possible. The longer a person stays in Congress the power they have. The more power they have makes them the winners who get the big donations. Reduce the longevity in office and you reduce the money in politics.

Hunnnh?
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You canít solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#315294 - 09/13/19 03:49 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Why do you think the state legislatures gerrymander Congressional Districts? To ensure that as many districts as possible will always elect a member of the party that controls the state legislature, whether it is the R's or the D's, to Congress. When members of Congress are out of office after a couple of terms they are not as powerful as they are now. The less power they have there will be less money spent getting them
elected.

When our elected officials are not in office for decades we control them, the special interest groups don't.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315328 - 09/14/19 03:47 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6838
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
The less power they have there will be less money spent getting them elected.

I believe you are thinking backwards. Think Citizens United.

I would suspect people like the Koch family would spend a butt load of money to get ultra conservatives elected if they are out of power, just so they will be in power.

Quote:
the special interest groups don't
I think there are examples of this not being valid in recent history. Junior Republicans came in as firebrand conservatives and quickly became tools of special interests. Of course this could be skewed by the fact the Republican base is driven by bigotry which taints all other variables. So is it fear of the base or eyepopping greed? i dunno
_________________________
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without equality there is no liberty

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#315331 - 09/14/19 05:04 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
There is something I find interesting here at the Rant. Nearly everyone attacks Republicans/Conservatives but when I defend them they say that I won't admit that the Republicans/Conservatives have done anything wrong. And god forbid if I point out that the Democrats/Liberals are not paragons of virtue. When I do that its almost as if I were to claim that no politician has ever lied. No wonder the Rant doesn't have many people posting on it. There is only so much blind unquestioning hatred that people can tolerate.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315341 - 09/14/19 05:58 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
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Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
There is something I find interesting here at the Rant. Nearly everyone attacks Republicans/Conservatives but when I defend them they say that I won't admit that the Republicans/Conservatives have done anything wrong. And god forbid if I point out that the Democrats/Liberals are not paragons of virtue. When I do that its almost as if I were to claim that no politician has ever lied. No wonder the Rant doesn't have many people posting on it. There is only so much blind unquestioning hatred that people can tolerate.

Broad-brushing and generalizations... never a good sign of objectivity.
_________________________
You canít solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#315343 - 09/14/19 06:15 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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For contrast, I have posted at a half dozen "conservative" blogs in the last ten years. I have been banned at all of them for saying no worse than I post here. Here at RR, over the course of my 9-1/2 years, I recall two Libs, two nutjobs, and one Classical Liberal being banned. Used to be more conservatives of various stripes, some long-timers, but they faded away on their own under the constant pressure to be honest and tell the truth, and to support their claims.

This thing of being artificially "fair and balanced" is a weak argument, because it fails to take into account that two sides may well not be equal in all things. A real debate on "bipartisan corruption" would have to be cognizant of solid evidence of which is better or worse, or if are they equal. Anecdotal and biased mentions of a handful of examples does not a defensible argument make.
_________________________
You canít solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#315345 - 09/14/19 06:45 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6838
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
Nearly everyone attacks Republicans/Conservatives but when I defend them they say that I won't admit that the Republicans/Conservatives have done anything wrong.

I think it is because you defend indefensible positions or statements and conclude the positions or statements are OK.

If a Democrat had said or done what Republicans have said or done I would be in front of the line protesting.

The problem you see is Republicans seem to make it a habit of doing or saying the indefensible while Democrats do not do it as often.

Let me say it clearly .... if Pres Obama had done what Mr Trump has done and continues to do, I would be yelling loudly for impeachment and I suspect you would as well. The difference is you will not do the same for Mr Trump. Of course hypocrisy is not a crime. It simply demonstrates a lack of objectively and maybe integrity.

Quote:
And god forbid if I point out that the Democrats/Liberals are not paragons of virtue.
I have no problem skewering the unethical or criminal politicians of any persuasion, however I suspect many of what you believe are problems are really differences of political opinions.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#315347 - 09/14/19 07:24 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: rporter314]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: rporter314
I think it is because you defend indefensible positions or statements and conclude the positions or statements are OK.

Many of the attacks on Republicans/Conservatives I have seen here are not based on facts. It is because I point out that they are not true people say I won't admit Republicans/Conservatives have done anything wrong. Your reply is a prime example of that.

Originally Posted By: rporter314
If a Democrat had said or done what Republicans have said or done I would be in front of the line protesting.

Should I hold my breath waiting for you to do that?

Originally Posted By: rporter314
The problem you see is Republicans seem to make it a habit of doing or saying the indefensible while Democrats do not do it as often.
BS! That is a very partisan statement.

Originally Posted By: rporter314
Let me say it clearly .... if Pres Obama had done what Mr Trump has done and continues to do, I would be yelling loudly for impeachment and I suspect you would as well. The difference is you will not do the same for Mr Trump. Of course hypocrisy is not a crime. It simply demonstrates a lack of objectively and maybe integrity.

You are wrong! There were many Republicans/Conservatives calling for Pres. Obama to be impeached. I did not join them in their folly. I didn't do that, when the Republicans/Conservatives were calling for the impeachment of Clinton or Obama, because to do so was and is a waste of time, effort, and political capital that can be put to better use.

Originally Posted By: rporter314
I have no problem skewering the unethical or criminal politicians of any persuasion, however I suspect many of what you believe are problems are really differences of political opinions.

Should I start holding my breath now? The huge and growing gap in the differences of political opinions is the problem. A problem that is nurtured by most of the people here on the Rant.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315357 - 09/14/19 10:24 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6838
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Strange you have just done what you accuse others of doing and you just don't get it ... or not really strange as I fully expect it.

Quote:
Many of the attacks on Republicans/Conservatives I have seen here are not based on facts.
So when Mr Trump obstructed an investigation, that is not based on facts? When Mr Trump freely admits he gropes women because he is a "star" that is not based on facts?? When Mr Trump for many years has made racist comments, that is not based on facts?

What is your definition of a fact?

Quote:
BS! That is a very partisan statement.
So your defense is Republicans do not say stupid things? Really? This is kinda like saying there is rampant voter fraud. Is that a stupid statement? Republicans make statements like that everyday. So I challenge you to find an equal number of stupid statements from Democrats. I want to know what partisan looks like for you.

Quote:
There were many Republicans/Conservatives calling for Pres. Obama to be impeached.
Wow. Did you read what you typed? You just did what you accuse every here of doing. What do you think that is? Responding to something I did not say ... DUH.

I said ... and please read this carefully ... if Pres Obama had done what Mr Trump has done and continues to do I would have called for Pres Obama's impeachment then.

Now you can respond appropriately.


Quote:
The huge and growing gap in the differences of political opinions is the problem.
Are you for real!!!!!!

Political positions have nothing to do with unethical behavior or criminal activities.

Impugning my integrity ... really???? .... look .... type a list of unethical or criminal behavior by Democrats, plutocrats, or just rats and see what my response is .... holding breath
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#315370 - 09/15/19 04:31 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: rporter314
So when Mr Trump obstructed an investigation, that is not based on facts? When Mr Trump freely admits he gropes women because he is a "star" that is not based on facts?? When Mr Trump for many years has made racist comments, that is not based on facts?

What is your definition of a fact?


Pres. Trump did not obstruct an investigation. He is alleged to have done so but an allegation is being suspected of having committed a crime. Your claim that he did is not been proven. Trump admitted he gropes women because he is a star. What he said happens to be true. He and countless other stars have groped women. That he did is wrong. It is wrong when any star gropes a woman. It does not matter if they are religious stars, Hollywood stars, or political stars. It is wrong! Making a racist comment does not make someone a racist. The definition of a fact.

Originally Posted By: rporter314
So your defense is Republicans do not say stupid things? Really? This is kinda like saying there is rampant voter fraud. Is that a stupid statement? Republicans make statements like that everyday. So I challenge you to find an equal number of stupid statements from Democrats. I want to know what partisan looks like for you.


No, my defense is not that Republicans donít say stupid things. Everybody says stupid things. It is part of being human.

Originally Posted By: rporter314
Wow. Did you read what you typed? You just did what you accuse every here of doing. What do you think that is? Responding to something I did not say ... DUH.

I said ... and please read this carefully ... if Pres Obama had done what Mr Trump has done and continues to do I would have called for Pres Obama's impeachment then.

Now you can respond appropriately.


Why did you edit my reply? Here is my complete comment which you edited in you your comments to change what I said and to make it look like I did not answer your question. That you did that shows that you are dishonest at best and unethical at worst.
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
You are wrong! There were many Republicans/Conservatives calling for Pres. Obama to be impeached. I did not join them in their folly. I didn't do that, when the Republicans/Conservatives were calling for the impeachment of Clinton or Obama, because to do so was and is a waste of time, effort, and political capital that can be put to better use.


Originally Posted By: rporter314
Are you for real!!!!!!

Political positions have nothing to do with unethical behavior or criminal activities.

Impugning my integrity ... really???? .... look .... type a list of unethical or criminal behavior by Democrats, plutocrats, or just rats and see what my response is .... holding breath


As far as I am concerned you have no integrity to impugn. When you edited my comment to misrepresent what I said you lost, in my opinion, whatever integrity you had.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315399 - 09/15/19 03:36 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6838
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
That you did that shows that you are dishonest at best and unethical at worst.

This demonstrates you did not understand or interpret what I said properly.

I offered a hypothetical for consideration. IF Pres Obama had done what Mr Trump has done and continues to do .... I would have called for the impeachment of Pres Obama.

Your comment was directed to Republicans who wanted to impeach Pres Obama for acts Pres Obama did which are not the hypothetical acts Mr Trump has done and continues to do. These are two different scenarios. So I could not misrepresent your comments because your comments do not apply to my hypothetical. You have apparently conflated all impeachments as being of equal value or importance.

Mr Trump has crossed all the lines for impeachable offenses. Had Pres Obama crossed the same lines I would have called for his impeachment. I am pointing out impeachment for me is non-political. It is an obligation of Congress to oversee the Executive branch to guarantee the President remains accountable to the people. That you do not see the importance of Art II, Sec 4 is concerning to me. Failure to act almost guarantees the chief executive could easily break the bonds of Constitutional propriety and become precisely what the Founders feared. That Mr Trump has trampled on the Institutions which form the basis for the Rule of Law and you do not see a problem is deeply concerning.

So again I state my comment .... you ignored my comment to restate your comment which has nothing to do with my statement.

So I am holding my breath (not) while you type a list of political positions which implies unethical or criminal behaviors.

Originally Posted By: Merriam-Webster Legal Definitions
obstruction ... the crime or act of willfully interfering with the process of justice and law especially by influencing, threatening, harming, or impeding a witness, potential witness, juror, or judicial or legal officer or by furnishing false information in or otherwise impeding an investigation or legal process
Having read the Mueller Report I can form an opinion based on that definition. I have to conclude you do not believe any of the facts (using your citation). It is indeed an allegation which has substantial evidence in support of the allegation.

Quote:
Making a racist comment does not make someone a racist.
So in your mind a Neo Nazi making racist comments is not a racist. Every racist I know (and I know a lot of them) say they are not racists. So it is important to define what is meant.

Originally Posted By: wiki
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior


So you continue to claim people who say racist things are not racists? What ever happened to that walking talking tail wagging critter that looks like a duck?

I suppose more accurately I could say Mr Trump is the voice of white supremacists and racists in America but is not a racist himself. How does that suit you?

Political positions which border on the ridiculous ... and I am still waiting on the rampant stupid form Democrats ... type away
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#315402 - 09/15/19 04:41 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: rporter314]
Greger Offline

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Posts: 15444
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Funny that a Republican would have the nerve to impugn anyone else's integrity when they seem to be so lacking in it themselves. What isn't twisted truth is made up lies.

I'm sure that some of them are fine people though.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#315482 - 09/16/19 11:14 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Greger]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Greger
Funny that a Republican would have the nerve to impugn anyone else's integrity when they seem to be so lacking in it themselves. What isn't twisted truth is made up lies.

I'm sure that some of them are fine people though.

So says a paragon of virtue. A paragon of virtue who impugns anyone who is a Republican, just because they are a Republican.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315488 - 09/16/19 11:49 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
So says a paragon of virtue. A paragon of virtue who impugns anyone who is a Republican, just because they are a Republican.

Would you like that recorded as a twisted truth, or a made up lie? crazy
_________________________
You canít solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#315489 - 09/17/19 12:05 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: rporter314]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: rporter314
Quote:
That you did that shows that you are dishonest at best and unethical at worst.

This demonstrates you did not understand or interpret what I said properly.

I offered a hypothetical for consideration. IF Pres Obama had done what Mr Trump has done and continues to do .... I would have called for the impeachment of Pres Obama.

Your comment was directed to Republicans who wanted to impeach Pres Obama for acts Pres Obama did which are not the hypothetical acts Mr Trump has done and continues to do. These are two different scenarios. So I could not misrepresent your comments because your comments do not apply to my hypothetical. You have apparently conflated all impeachments as being of equal value or importance.

The only response to your question is if were to agree with and demand that Pres. Trump be impeached. You are demanding I do what you claimed you might have done.

Originally Posted By: rporter314
Mr Trump has crossed all the lines for impeachable offenses. Had Pres Obama crossed the same lines I would have called for his impeachment.
Only in your opinion has Trump crossed all the lines and must be impeached. Your claim that he has does not impress nor convince that he has.
Originally Posted By: rporter314
I am pointing out impeachment for me is non-political.
Is it? I don't believe you because you have done nothing to convince me that it is.
Originally Posted By: rporter314
It is an obligation of Congress to oversee the Executive branch to guarantee the President remains accountable to the people. That you do not see the importance of Art II, Sec 4 is concerning to me. Failure to act almost guarantees the chief executive could easily break the bonds of Constitutional propriety and become precisely what the Founders feared.
Yes, that is one the things Congress is supposed to do. But they are more concerned about getting reelected than following our Constitution. The bonds of Constitutional propriety were broken by FDR.
Originally Posted By: rporter314
That Mr Trump has trampled on the Institutions which form the basis for the Rule of Law and you do not see a problem is deeply concerning.
Again, that is your opinion. Has Trump put over 100,000 Americans citizens in concentration camps because of their nationality? FDR did with any concern about their Constitutional protected rights.

Originally Posted By: rporter314
So again I state my comment .... you ignored my comment to restate your comment which has nothing to do with my statement.

I did not ignore your comment. That don't like my comment in reply to it does mean I ignored. All it means is I didn't answer the way you wanted me to.
Originally Posted By: Merriam-Webster Legal Definitions
obstruction ... the crime or act of willfully interfering with the process of justice and law especially by influencing, threatening, harming, or impeding a witness, potential witness, juror, or judicial or legal officer or by furnishing false information in or otherwise impeding an investigation or legal process
Originally Posted By: rporter314
Having read the Mueller Report I can form an opinion based on that definition. I have to conclude you do not believe any of the facts (using your citation). It is indeed an allegation which has substantial evidence in support of the allegation.

Whether or not there is substantial evidence in support of allegations against a sitting President the DOJ will not bring an indictment against him.
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Making a racist comment does not make someone a racist.

Originally Posted By: rporter314
So in your mind a Neo Nazi making racist comments is not a racist. Every racist I know (and I know a lot of them) say they are not racists. So it is important to define what is meant.

Originally Posted By: wiki
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior


So you continue to claim people who say racist things are not racists? What ever happened to that walking talking tail wagging critter that looks like a duck?
People do stupid things that does not mean they are stupid.

Originally Posted By: rporter314
I suppose more accurately I could say Mr Trump is the voice of white supremacists and racists in America but is not a racist himself. How does that suit you?
For Trump to be a racist he would have believe what he is saying. There is only one thing Donald J. Trump believes in and that is Donald J. Trump!

Originally Posted By: rporter314
Political positions which border on the ridiculous ... and I am still waiting on the rampant stupid form Democrats ... type away

Why should I do that? Any list I type you will not believe. You won't because you are completely convinced that Trump should be impeached and expect others to call for his impeachment on the basis of your opinion that he should be.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315491 - 09/17/19 01:21 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
I agree, Senator. Impeachment is futile and a waste of legislative time. He has been investigated from top to bottom and there are no high crimes and misdemeanors. Corrupt? Yeah. Self dealing? Yeah. Unethical? Yeah. Dishonest? Yeah. But as long as no laws have been broken he may continue to burn this motherf**ker to the ground as far as I'm concerned.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#315497 - 09/17/19 06:34 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17089
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: rporter314
I think it is because you defend indefensible positions or statements and conclude the positions or statements are OK.

Many of the attacks on Republicans/Conservatives I have seen here are not based on facts. It is because I point out that they are not true people say I won't admit Republicans/Conservatives have done anything wrong. Your reply is a prime example of that.
Here's the problem with what you are saying, my friend: "pointing out that they are not true", in your practice, means merely saying that "it is not true." Repeatedly you have made such claims (as well as claims against Democrats) without supplying any supporting evidence. Bare assertions do not a reasonable argument make. ("Is not", "is too", "is not", ad nauseum is not a reasonable debate process.) When evidence is marshalled in opposition to your points, the most common responses are: 1) no response, 2) spurious personal allegations of arrogance, or partisanship, 3) gish-gallop posts with further unsubstantiated assertions of "fact", and/or 4) tangential distractions and deflections. It is very, very frustrating.

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: rporter314
If a Democrat had said or done what Republicans have said or done I would be in front of the line protesting.

Should I hold my breath waiting for you to do that?
In relation to...? [see #4) tangential distractions and deflections.]

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: rporter314
The problem you see is Republicans seem to make it a habit of doing or saying the indefensible while Democrats do not do it as often.
BS! That is a very partisan statement.
But... true? [See point #2]

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: rporter314
Let me say it clearly .... if Pres Obama had done what Mr Trump has done and continues to do, I would be yelling loudly for impeachment and I suspect you would as well. The difference is you will not do the same for Mr Trump. Of course hypocrisy is not a crime. It simply demonstrates a lack of objectively and maybe integrity.

You are wrong! There were many Republicans/Conservatives calling for Pres. Obama to be impeached. I did not join them in their folly. I didn't do that, when the Republicans/Conservatives were calling for the impeachment of Clinton or Obama, because to do so was and is a waste of time, effort, and political capital that can be put to better use.
Would that I had a time machine to fact-check this assertion.

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: rporter314
I have no problem skewering the unethical or criminal politicians of any persuasion, however I suspect many of what you believe are problems are really differences of political opinions.

Should I start holding my breath now? The huge and growing gap in the differences of political opinions is the problem. A problem that is nurtured by most of the people here on the Rant.
[See point #2.]

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#315498 - 09/17/19 07:12 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17089
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: rporter314
Mr Trump has crossed all the lines for impeachable offenses. Had Pres Obama crossed the same lines I would have called for his impeachment.
Only in your opinion has Trump crossed all the lines and must be impeached. Your claim that he has does not impress nor convince that he has.
Given the public record available, I am of the impression that nothing Trump has done, or could do, would be sufficient to "convince" you that he should be impeached. That is the most thoroughly partisan position possible.

In contrast, I submit:
1) PRESIDENT TRUMPíS APPARENT CAMPAIGN FINANCE CRIMES, COVER-UP, AND CONSPIRACY (CREW);
2) The 10 instances of possible obstruction in Mueller report (apnews);
3) Emoluments violations in Blumenthal, et al. v. Trump;
4) Self-dealing corruption... so many they can't be adequately catalogued (Not just Pence: Trump, PACs or governmen...days since 2017 (WaPo, subscription);
5) Failure to follow the oath of office by not appointing cabinet-level and other officials, Trump's Empty Cabinet (Politico);
6) Making false statements under oath.

Mind you, this is just a preliminary list.

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#315504 - 09/17/19 02:00 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: rporter314
Mr Trump has crossed all the lines for impeachable offenses. Had Pres Obama crossed the same lines I would have called for his impeachment.
Only in your opinion has Trump crossed all the lines and must be impeached. Your claim that he has does not impress nor convince that he has.
Given the public record available, I am of the impression that nothing Trump has done, or could do, would be sufficient to "convince" you that he should be impeached. That is the most thoroughly partisan position possible.

In contrast, I submit:
1) PRESIDENT TRUMPíS APPARENT CAMPAIGN FINANCE CRIMES, COVER-UP, AND CONSPIRACY (CREW);
2) The 10 instances of possible obstruction in Mueller report (apnews);
3) Emoluments violations in Blumenthal, et al. v. Trump;
4) Self-dealing corruption... so many they can't be adequately catalogued (Not just Pence: Trump, PACs or governmen...days since 2017 (WaPo, subscription);
5) Failure to follow the oath of office by not appointing cabinet-level and other officials, Trump's Empty Cabinet (Politico);
6) Making false statements under oath.

Mind you, this is just a preliminary list.
But your using a bunch of partisan sources of allegations is a reason to believe Pres. Trump should be impeached? What a crock of s***! That you hide your blatant partisanship behind a facade of intellectualism does not impress me nor does it convince me to believe you. Get the f__k off your high horse! You are not the freaking genius you think you are!
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315516 - 09/17/19 05:11 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17089
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
But your using a bunch of partisan sources of allegations is a reason to believe Pres. Trump should be impeached?
That you insist on vociferously ignoring any evidence whatever that does not gibe with your preconceived conclusions is more indicative of YOUR blind partisanship than mine. You didn't even bother to look at a single source, did you? (Hardly partisan sources at all.) You make assumptions and assertions based upon your predilections. To quote a friend of mine (even though it crosses the line of propriety): "What a crock of s***!" (I get the impression I struck a nerve.)

To repeat my previous points:
Quote:
When evidence is marshalled in opposition to your points, the most common responses are: 1) no response, 2) spurious personal allegations of arrogance, or partisanship, 3) gish-gallop posts with further unsubstantiated assertions of "fact", and/or 4) tangential distractions and deflections. It is very, very frustrating.

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#315524 - 09/17/19 05:55 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
But your using a bunch of partisan sources of allegations is a reason to believe Pres. Trump should be impeached?
That you insist on vociferously ignoring any evidence whatever that does not gibe with your preconceived conclusions is more indicative of YOUR blind partisanship than mine. You didn't even bother to look at a single source, did you? (Hardly partisan sources at all.) You make assumptions and assertions based upon your predilections. To quote a friend of mine (even though it crosses the line of propriety): "What a crock of s***!" (I get the impression I struck a nerve.)


To repeat my previous points:
Quote:
When evidence is marshalled in opposition to your points, the most common responses are: 1) no response, 2) spurious personal allegations of arrogance, or partisanship, 3) gish-gallop posts with further unsubstantiated assertions of "fact", and/or 4) tangential distractions and deflections. It is very, very frustrating.

I looked at all of them
1) CREW has not done any investigations into possible violations of the law by Hillary Clinton since November 2016. The lack of investigations into Mrs. Clinton's actions is proof of the sites partisanship.
2) APNEWS "Page not found"
3) The Constitutional Accountability Center works with CREW.
4) NJ. COM is an opinion piece
4a) The Washington Post isn't partisan? The Politico story says that it is.
5) As the Politico article says "the harsh glare of an invigorated Washington press corps" makes it difficult to fill those positions. Add to the harsh glare that Sarah Huckabee Sanders was so harassed, because she was Trump's Press Secretary, while eating in a restaurant that she had to leave is not something people want to subject themselves to.
6) An NBC story from before The Mueller Report was made public is not telling the full story.
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
(Hardly partisan sources at all.)
If this is your idea of non-partisan sources I'd hate see what you think is a partisan source. You wouldn't know a non-partisan source if it kicked you. I will admit that I am partisan, why can't you? You can't because your sources support your partisan views. What struck a nerve is that you can't see how biased you are. You hide your bias behind a veneer of intellectualism.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315527 - 09/17/19 06:23 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Quote:
You hide your bias behind a veneer of intellectualism.


Senator, I assure you the intellect is real. And it's never a good idea to argue about the law with a lawyer unless you're also a lawyer.

That high horse is a thoroughbred and he knows how to ride it well.

yer own seems a mite skittish at times. I had a horse like that once, he settled down after I had him gelded.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#315538 - 09/17/19 06:54 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Greger]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
You hide your bias behind a veneer of intellectualism.


Senator, I assure you the intellect is real. And it's never a good idea to argue about the law with a lawyer unless you're also a lawyer.

That high horse is a thoroughbred and he knows how to ride it well.

yer own seems a mite skittish at times. I had a horse like that once, he settled down after I had him gelded.

You do remember this joke about lawyers? "How do you know when lawyers are lying? Their lips are moving."
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315540 - 09/17/19 07:00 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17089
Friend Hatrack, your response contains not an iota of relevance. You assail the bona fides of the sources without providing any response to the contents thereof. I see no merit in reading further anything offered by you on the topic in the absence of substance. Enough.

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#315541 - 09/17/19 07:01 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14299
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

You do remember this joke about lawyers? "How do you know when lawyers are lying? Their lips are moving."


Most of the founding fathers were lawyers.
Among the 55 framers of the Constitution, 32 were lawyers.
Now apply your bon mot to them.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#315542 - 09/17/19 07:04 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14299
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
"the harsh glare of an invigorated Washington press corps" makes it difficult to fill those positions.


In an administration like Trump's?
Not the least bit surprised, and your attempt to blame the press and, of course, the godless America hating Marxists is lame in the extreme.
The press is allergic to bullsh!t, so when the odor of bullsh!t erupts on a level approaching Krakatoa, naturally they are "invigorated".

What else does anyone THINK "invigorates" a press corps?
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#315544 - 09/17/19 07:08 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: perotista]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14299
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: perotista
The only way I can think of is to get money out of politics which isn't going to happen. Besides since money is speech, it would be against the 1st amendment.

Citizens United was the most asinine SCOTUS so far this century. Hmm


Until the 2016 presidential election where Hillary raised and spent 1.191 billion to Trump's 646.8 million every presidential candidate who raised and spent the most won since 1964. In 1964 . Outside of 2016, 1964 where Goldwater outspent LBJ 16 million to 9 million.

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/graphics/2016-presidential-campaign-fundraising/

The most money raised and spent by a presidential candidate.
2016 Hillary Clinton 1.191 billion
2008 Obama 760.4 million
2012 Obama 737.1 million
2012 Romney 483.1 million
2004 G.W. Bush 355.0 million
2004 Kerry 332.7 million
2008 McCain 239.7 million

Money usually talks big. But not in 2016 or 1964.


You cited two instances where money did not get the job done.
And rulings like Citizens United CAN be overturned, or reversed.
Money is speech, when a HUMAN BEING, a flesh and blood human being, spends it.
These recent SCOTUS rulings have invented a brand new species of "person", one which, instead of being made of muscle, bone, flesh and blood, is made of concrete, steel, glass, lawyers and unlimited funds.
This is an immortal species of person, too.

Corporations are people, yes.
But a corporation is NOT "a person". The difference is huge, and unsustainable, except at the cost of our democracy.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#315545 - 09/17/19 07:17 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Friend Hatrack, your response contains not an iota of relevance. You assail the bona fides of the sources without providing any response to the contents thereof. I see no merit in reading further anything offered by you on the topic in the absence of substance. Enough.

I responded to the contents of each one of them. My reply lacks substance because I didn't agree with your sources. So if you want to run away from the discussion because I don't agree with you and prove you wrong I can't stop you. You will of course deny that you wrong because your ego can't admit that you make mistakes.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#315546 - 09/17/19 07:31 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17089
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
I responded to the contents of each one of them. My reply lacks substance because I didn't agree with your sources. So if you want to run away from the discussion because I don't agree with you and prove you wrong I can't stop you. You will of course deny that you wrong because your ego can't admit that you make mistakes.
No, you didn't. I cannot adequately respond to the quality of your posts or integrity without running afoul of the rules of the forum. You most assuredly DID NOT respond to the substance, you merely complained about the sources. I used those sources because they encapsulate the arguments succinctly without having to burden the thread and feebler brains with the details of them. If you had bothered to look at the contents of any of the posts, a) you could not have responded so quickly, and b) you could have addressed the substance. That you continuously fail to do so, again, says everything about your integrity and acumen, and nothing about what I posted. I am not "running away", I am throwing up quietly in the corner and laughing up my sleeve. It is wearying to match wits with an unarmed man. It makes me feel like a bully. When you have a comment of substance, as I said, I will welcome you back with open arms. Until then. Stop. Being. A. Troll*.

* "a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain." Wikipedia

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#315548 - 09/17/19 07:39 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
"the harsh glare of an invigorated Washington press corps" makes it difficult to fill those positions.


In an administration like Trump's?
Not the least bit surprised, and your attempt to blame the press and, of course, the godless America hating Marxists is lame in the extreme.
The press is allergic to bullsh!t, so when the odor of bullsh!t erupts on a level approaching Krakatoa, naturally they are "invigorated".

What else does anyone THINK "invigorates" a press corps?
I did not blame the press. I quoted an article from POLITICO which is part of the press. Your obsessive belief that any time I criticize any liberals because they are "Marxists" is a sign of paranoia.

NOT ALL LIBERALS ARE MARXISTS!

NOT ALL LIBERALS ARE MARXISTS!

NOT ALL LIBERALS ARE MARXISTS!
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#315554 - 09/17/19 08:00 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14299
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
"the harsh glare of an invigorated Washington press corps" makes it difficult to fill those positions.


In an administration like Trump's?
Not the least bit surprised, and your attempt to blame the press and, of course, the godless America hating Marxists is lame in the extreme.
The press is allergic to bullsh!t, so when the odor of bullsh!t erupts on a level approaching Krakatoa, naturally they are "invigorated".

What else does anyone THINK "invigorates" a press corps?
I did not blame the press. I quoted an article from POLITICO which is part of the press. Your obsessive belief that any time I criticize any liberals because they are "Marxists" is a sign of paranoia.

NOT ALL LIBERALS ARE MARXISTS!

NOT ALL LIBERALS ARE MARXISTS!

NOT ALL LIBERALS ARE MARXISTS!



Yeah I've already heard your excuses.

Quote:
"All liberals aren't marxists, but those liberals are aiding and abetting marxists anyway, and besides, they still hate America, want government control over everything, and they'd be much happier if they all became conservatives"


The fact is, you repeated the marxist thing SO MUCH that it stuck, and now you're only trying to defend against your own earlier attention seeking behavior.
I do not blame you for this however.
I believe it stems from your lifetime on the fringes. (both left and right)
You simply do not have any realistic frame of reference for normal ordinary lefties.
You invented your 50 megaton F-bomb marxist broadsides as a defense mechanism.

Sorry but I did not make this up in my head. Your words, Senator.
In fact, you and I went back and forth on this one for about three days back channel.

"When someone tells you who they are, believe them!"
Maya Angelou said that.
I take you at your word...
You see people who don't agree with your increasingly narrow definition of conservatism and you reflexively label them as godless America hating big government marxists.

If asked, you would not be able to describe accurately how the typical normal sane liberal thinks, because you've sawed off any frame of reference to them in your campaign to build Fortress Hatrack...where, in your mind, the only true and valid kernel of conservatism lives.
You needed "the lumber", you see yourself as Keeper of the Flame and you see everyone outside your circle as fire extinguisher salesmen, so it's no wonder you got so good at yelling "GODLESS MARXISTS!".

The only reason you're denying it now is because you got called out on your constant red-baiting. Don't make me pull up all the actual transcripts of your red-baiting for everyone to see again.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#315555 - 09/17/19 08:07 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14299
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
I did not blame the press. I quoted an article from POLITICO which is part of the press.



Trump's cabinet is empty because almost nobody wants to work for him anymore.
Simply put - this is why:

_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#315558 - 09/17/19 08:14 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
I responded to the contents of each one of them. My reply lacks substance because I didn't agree with your sources. So if you want to run away from the discussion because I don't agree with you and prove you wrong I can't stop you. You will of course deny that you wrong because your ego can't admit that you make mistakes.
No, you didn't. I cannot adequately respond to the quality of your posts or integrity without running afoul of the rules of the forum. You most assuredly DID NOT respond to the substance, you merely complained about the sources. I used those sources because they encapsulate the arguments succinctly without having to burden the thread and feebler brains with the details of them. If you had bothered to look at the contents of any of the posts, a) you could not have responded so quickly, and b) you could have addressed the substance. That you continuously fail to do so, again, says everything about your integrity and acumen, and nothing about what I posted. I am not "running away", I am throwing up quietly in the corner and laughing up my sleeve. It is wearying to match wits with an unarmed man. It makes me feel like a bully. When you have a comment of substance, as I said, I will welcome you back with open arms. Until then. Stop. Being. A. Troll*.

* "a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain." Wikipedia

The first source you use CREW is partisan.
Quote:
The idea for Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW) was conceived by Norman Eisen and Louis Mayberg, two lawyers who often donated to Democrat causes. Eisen and Mayberg decided they needed a government watchdog to mirror the conservative ethics groups that successfully battled Bill Clinton during the 1990s. Their idea blossomed into CREW, which was born in 2003.

They tapped former Democrat Senate aide Melanie Sloan to run the new organization. Sloan built the group into a major player in the progressive movement, filing numerous charges against the George W. Bush administration and Republicans in Congress. In 2015, she yielded control of CREW to another former Senate Democrat aide, Noah Bookbinder.

My complaint about your source is justified. The bias of your first source negated any credibility for the rest of them, which I also investigated.
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
If you had bothered to look at the contents of any of the posts, a) you could not have responded so quickly, and b) you could have addressed the substance.

How the hell would you that I couldn't respond to your comments as quickly as I did. You don't know how fast I can read nor do you know how familiar I am with the sources you used. Having been active in politics for a long time I know from years of experience the political leanings of the sources you used.

Save the sanctimonious crap!
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
That you continuously fail to do so, again, says everything about your integrity and acumen, and nothing about what I posted. I am not "running away", I am throwing up quietly in the corner and laughing up my sleeve. It is wearying to match wits with an unarmed man.

You are not as witty nor as intelligent as you think you are. BTW, don't feel like a bully, you are one.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315559 - 09/17/19 08:58 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Yeah I've already heard your excuses.

Quote:
"All liberals aren't marxists, but those liberals are aiding and abetting marxists anyway, and besides, they still hate America, want government control over everything, and they'd be much happier if they all became conservatives"

I never said that.

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
The fact is, you repeated the marxist thing SO MUCH that it stuck, and now you're only trying to defend against your own earlier attention seeking behavior.
I do not blame you for this however.
I believe it stems from your lifetime on the fringes. (both left and right)
You simply do not have any realistic frame of reference for normal ordinary lefties.
You invented your 50 megaton F-bomb marxist broadsides as a defense mechanism.

My lifetime on the fringes? That is a crock of s***! That I was an active grassroots member of the DFL is not being on the fringe. Nor is working for local city and state Republican candidates being on the fringe of the GOP.
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Sorry but I did not make this up in my head. Your words, Senator.
In fact, you and I went back and forth on this one for about three days back channel.
Yes, you did. What "back channel" are you talking about?

Originally Posted By: Jefferey J. Haas
"When someone tells you who they are, believe them!"
Maya Angelou said that.

A great poet and very talented woman.
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
I take you at your word...
You see people who don't agree with your increasingly narrow definition of conservatism and you reflexively label them as godless America hating big government marxists.
Who have said that about?

Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
If asked, you would not be able to describe accurately how the typical normal sane liberal thinks, because you've sawed off any frame of reference to them in your campaign to build Fortress Hatrack...where, in your mind, the only true and valid kernel of conservatism lives.
You needed "the lumber", you see yourself as Keeper of the Flame and you see everyone outside your circle as fire extinguisher salesmen, so it's no wonder you got so good at yelling "GODLESS MARXISTS!".

Since most of my friends are liberals, whom I get along with very well, I know how they think. Also in that I am an atheist being "godless" is something I would agree with them on. So, it is only in your imagination that I ever yelled that.
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J.Haas
The only reason you're denying it now is because you got called out on your constant red-baiting. Don't make me pull up all the actual transcripts of your red-baiting for everyone to see again.

Please do post all of my comments where side all liberals are Marxists.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315561 - 09/17/19 09:16 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Offline

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Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
If it makes you feel better, comrade, I'm kind of a Marxist. And I'm also a practicing Pagan who worships the Earth as a living Goddess. A "witch" so to speak and quite godless in the Republican sense of the word. So yes indeedy, some of us are godless Marxists. More probably than you can even imagine.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#315562 - 09/17/19 09:19 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17089
I thought, given the length of the response, that friend Hatrack had actually read and responded to the previously, lengthily cited, post...

But, no. More of the same. Nothing of substance, just a lot of griping and accusations, heavily flavored with ... ahem... well, y'all can smell it from there.

Seriously, Senator Hatrack, stop. Your "expose" of CREW is from ... a Koch-funded propaganda website masquerading as something it is not. CORE* (Center for Organizational Research and Education) is a lobbyist-created organization begun with "$600,000 from the Philip Morris tobacco company to fight smoking limitations in restaurants" and to operate as a front for various ultra-right, anti-science organizations. "In addition to its own websites the CCF, which since 2014 also uses the name "Center for Organizational Research and Education"(CORE), operates several dozen websites specifically targeting organizations and agencies working on social issues including animal rights, fair wages, transfats, drunken driving, sugar, labor union activities, and mercury content in fish." Yeah, a really, really reliable counter source to facts.

This is pathetic, my friend. Really and truly pathetic.

*NOT the venerable "Congress of Racial Equality," an organization founded in 1942, mind you, but a recently minted fake.org using the same name to confuse and detract, as do most of its subsidiary websites.

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#315576 - 09/18/19 04:28 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I thought, given the length of the response, that friend Hatrack had actually read and responded to the previously, lengthily cited, post...

But, no. More of the same. Nothing of substance, just a lot of griping and accusations, heavily flavored with ... ahem... well, y'all can smell it from there.

Seriously, Senator Hatrack, stop. Your "expose" of CREW is from ... a Koch-funded propaganda website masquerading as something it is not. CORE* (Center for Organizational Research and Education) is a lobbyist-created organization begun with "$600,000 from the Philip Morris tobacco company to fight smoking limitations in restaurants" and to operate as a front for various ultra-right, anti-science organizations. "In addition to its own websites the CCF, which since 2014 also uses the name "Center for Organizational Research and Education"(CORE), operates several dozen websites specifically targeting organizations and agencies working on social issues including animal rights, fair wages, transfats, drunken driving, sugar, labor union activities, and mercury content in fish." Yeah, a really, really reliable counter source to facts.

This is pathetic, my friend. Really and truly pathetic.

*NOT the venerable "Congress of Racial Equality," an organization founded in 1942, mind you, but a recently minted fake.org using the same name to confuse and detract, as do most of its subsidiary websites.

No, NW Ponderer what is really and truly pathetic is that if a source is liberal, like CREW is, it can do no wrong. But a Conservative source can do nothing right. What is even more pathetic is that because I don't agree with you, your mistaken belief that I didn't thoroughly read your post. Then the most pathetic of all is you calling me your friend. Friends respect each other. Whenever I have disagreed with your response is that of parent to a wayward child.

The rules here at the Rant prevent from telling what I think you should do. Are you so insecure that you can't handle it when someone disagrees with you? Your replies sure as hell show that you are!
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315577 - 09/18/19 04:36 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14299
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
But a Conservative source can do nothing right.


Senator, you are defending the "Thank You For Smoking" people.

Seriously...you really are.

You sure this is the "hill you want to die on?" <<-figure of speech
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#315580 - 09/18/19 05:47 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
But a Conservative source can do nothing right.


Senator, you are defending the "Thank You For Smoking" people.

Seriously...you really are.

You sure this is the "hill you want to die on?" <<-figure of speech

In America everyone deserves to be defended, even the "Thank You For Smoking" people. Which is actually a funny movie based on a satirical novel by Christopher Buckley.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315588 - 09/18/19 03:23 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17089
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
No, NW Ponderer what is really and truly pathetic is that if a source is liberal, like CREW is, it can do no wrong. But a Conservative source can do nothing right. What is even more pathetic is that because I don't agree with you, your mistaken belief that I didn't thoroughly read your post. Then the most pathetic of all is you calling me your friend. Friends respect each other. Whenever I have disagreed with your response is that of parent to a wayward child.

The rules here at the Rant prevent from telling what I think you should do. Are you so insecure that you can't handle it when someone disagrees with you? Your replies sure as hell show that you are!
Wow. Just wow. I'll keep my response short and simple. You continue to follow the expectations I previously listed: ignore the substance and attack the form. I could give you a dozen sources and it wouldn't matter a bit, because you wouldn't (and haven't) read them. That is obvious and admitted.

Instead, what you continue to do is obfuscate, denigrate, and offend to obscure the fact that you have nothing to offer. You accuse me with "that if a source is liberal, like CREW is, it can do no wrong. But a Conservative source can do nothing right." That is a LIE. You can't show it, you can't prove it, you just make accusations without substance, period. What's worse is you know it is a lie. I'm not a bit insecure in either my thoughts or my behavior.

I'm sorry if I have embarrassed you, my friend. But, I ask you to address the substance of my claims,and knock off all the ad hominem bullshit. That's it.

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#315593 - 09/18/19 04:52 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
In contrast, I submit:
1) PRESIDENT TRUMPíS APPARENT CAMPAIGN FINANCE CRIMES, COVER-UP, AND CONSPIRACY (CREW);
2) The 10 instances of possible obstruction in Mueller report (apnews);
3) Emoluments violations in Blumenthal, et al. v. Trump;
4) Self-dealing corruption... so many they can't be adequately catalogued (Not just Pence: Trump, PACs or governmen...days since 2017 (WaPo, subscription);
5) Failure to follow the oath of office by not appointing cabinet-level and other officials, Trump's Empty Cabinet (Politico);
6) Making false statements under oath.

Mind you, this is just a preliminary list.

The desire to impeach Pres. Trump is partisan. To quote a number of partisan sources does not do anything but prove that the desire to impeach Trump is partisan. That is the substance of this discussion. And then even in the partisan sources there is no proof that Trump has done anything wrong.
"PRESIDENT TRUMP'S APPARENT CAMPAIGN FINANCE CRIMES, COVER UP, AND CONSPIRACY."
The word apparent means that Trump's campaign has been suspected of various crime, not that it has done anything wrong. My response to a number of partisan claims is of course going to be partisan.

The reason I am opposed to this partisan drive to impeach Trump is that some Democrats are being as stupid as some Republicans were. The Republican attempt to impeach Pres. Clinton was stupid! The desire of some Republicans to impeach Pres. Obama was stupid! Now some Democrats are imitating some Republicans by making the stupid, and partisan, demand for Pres. Trump to be impeached. For once I agree with Rep. Pelosi, she doesn't think there are grounds for bringing impeachment proceedings against Trump. Only once in our country's history has the attempt to impeach our President been done for legitimate reasons. That was when an attempt was made to impeach Pres. Nixon.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315596 - 09/18/19 05:42 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Quote:
The desire to impeach Pres. Trump is partisan. To quote a number of partisan sources does not do anything but prove that the desire to impeach Trump is partisan.

Of course it's partisan ya silly auld fool! That doesn't make it go away or make it less valid. Trump has whipped partisanship into a frenzy and plans to ride it into a second term. The more he can piss us off the happier his base is.

It's a house of cards that's gonna fall in 2020.

I wake up every morning with a spring in my step and a smile on my face just thinking about it.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#315598 - 09/18/19 06:11 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Greger]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
The desire to impeach Pres. Trump is partisan. To quote a number of partisan sources does not do anything but prove that the desire to impeach Trump is partisan.

Of course it's partisan ya silly auld fool! That doesn't make it go away or make it less valid. Trump has whipped partisanship into a frenzy and plans to ride it into a second term. The more he can piss us off the happier his base is.

It's a house of cards that's gonna fall in 2020.

I wake up every morning with a spring in my step and a smile on my face just thinking about it.
Remember a lot of people were convinced that Hillary Clinton would trounce Donald J. Trump but that isn't what happened. Your belief that Trump will lose in 2020 could be just as wrong.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315599 - 09/18/19 06:22 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Greger]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Oh, but yeah...impeachment. It's nothing but political drama. All the talk about impeachment doesn't make Trump any more or less hated. It's unlikely to sway the election towards Democrats and less likely to produce a conviction in the Senate.

If impeachment becomes a real thing and follows the course we all know it will follow, Donald John Trump will be exonerated of any wrongdoing by the US Senate just before the election. The deploreables who worship him will drag their beer and opiate fogged asses out from under whatever rock they live under and vote for His F**king Royal Mightiness to continue owning the libs.

It's okay to talk about but let's not actually do it.

Because...I might be wrong. The 2020 race might be closer than I think. There's a fairly small number of outcomes to choose from in the upcoming election. One of them is that we flip the Senate but lose to Trump via the Electoral College again.

He'd still be President but we'd have him by the short hairs. Like the Republicans had Obama. Then we'd just wait til his popularity dropped and impeach at will. It would be great political theater and probably win the 2024 race for Democrats but I see it as a waste of time. I've got an agenda and I'm getting old.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#315600 - 09/18/19 06:33 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Remember a lot of people were convinced that Hillary Clinton would trounce Donald J. Trump

In the real world a victory by 2.4 million votes would be considered a "trouncing" only in America do we call it a loss.

And we continue to lose every day he remains in office.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#315618 - 09/19/19 05:26 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8771
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
I agree with Rep. Pelosi, she doesn't think there are grounds for bringing impeachment proceedings against Trump.


She never said there were not grounds. There are plenty of grounds, according the Mueller and he's a Republican. Pelosi said there is not enough public support for impeachment, which an entirely different thing.

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#315620 - 09/19/19 07:11 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17089
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
...
Mind you, this is just a preliminary list.

The desire to impeach Pres. Trump is partisan. To quote a number of partisan sources does not do anything but prove that the desire to impeach Trump is partisan. That is the substance of this discussion...
No, that is the sum total of your argument, which is... a nullity. You have provided absolutely nothing, NOTHING, in response but partisan claptrap without substance. Yet, you persist. I'll wait patiently for something of merit, but this is just silliness.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#315626 - 09/19/19 02:41 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
...
Mind you, this is just a preliminary list.

The desire to impeach Pres. Trump is partisan. To quote a number of partisan sources does not do anything but prove that the desire to impeach Trump is partisan. That is the substance of this discussion...
No, that is the sum total of your argument, which is... a nullity. You have provided absolutely nothing, NOTHING, in response but partisan claptrap without substance. Yet, you persist. I'll wait patiently for something of merit, but this is just silliness.
Replying to less than half of comment is BS! But then that is what I have come to expect from you NW. In the rest of my comment, which you ignored, I explained why the desire to impeach Pres. Trump is partisan. Then you obnoxiously say that you will wait until I have something to say that the great and mighty OZ thinks has merit. The only comments that you think have any "merit" are the ones that agree with you. I was going to re-post the rest of my comment but it would be a waste of time because the great and mighty OZ has already rejected what I had to say. The silliness is trying to have a discussion with the great and mighty OZ!
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315631 - 09/19/19 05:27 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Quote:
The desire to impeach Pres. Trump is partisan. To quote a number of partisan sources does not do anything but prove that the desire to impeach Trump is partisan. That is the substance of this discussion...


Whyever is partisanship so important to you? Are Democrats supposed to just sit on their hands until Republicans decide he's so awful that they have to bring up the charges themselves?

Your support for a president you despise is fairly laughable next to your claim of partisan attacks on him. YOU elected this clown. YOU brought this circus to town knowing full well it would be a disaster.

Yet you cry "Partisan! Partisan" when the other party erupts in fury?
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#315633 - 09/19/19 06:49 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Posts: 17089
In the view of the great and mighty OZ (and anyone with eyes), friend Hatrack, you have presented not an iota of evidence refuting a single element of my post, despite a dozen opportunities to do so. The sum total of your response is: it's partisan! You've not addressed the 10 instances of obstruction, two of campaign finance violations, numerous emoluments issues, various corruption questions, failure to appoint cabinet and sub-cabinet officers, or false statements under oath. For someone who started a thread about corruption you seem remarkably, even pathologically, adverse to actually discussing it.

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#315634 - 09/19/19 06:56 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Posts: 17089
Returning to the central question of the thread: what can be done about corruption is: expose it, shame it, prosecute it when possible, and reject it in honor, and furtherance, of our venerated Constitution.

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#315635 - 09/19/19 07:36 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
In the view of the great and mighty OZ (and anyone with eyes), friend Hatrack, you have presented not an iota of evidence refuting a single element of my post, despite a dozen opportunities to do so. The sum total of your response is: it's partisan! You've not addressed the 10 instances of obstruction, two of campaign finance violations, numerous emoluments issues, various corruption questions, failure to appoint cabinet and sub-cabinet officers, or false statements under oath. For someone who started a thread about corruption you seem remarkably, even pathologically, adverse to actually discussing it.
The reason I haven't "addressed" those allegations is because there isn't a damn thing I can do about them! If the allegations are true, which remains to be seen, it is up to the House of Representatives to attempt to impeach Pres. Trump. As a lawyer you should know that it is up those who are making the allegations of criminal behavior to prove them beyond a reasonable doubt. You, as the prosecution have not done that. The defense doesn't need to prove anything. Even The Mueller Report says that isn't enough evidence to bring charges or impeachment proceedings against Trump. You can yell and demand that Trump be impeached all you want. But nothing is going to happen until the House of Representatives decides to do something about it! Since you talked anyone having eyes I've re-posted why impeachment proceedings will not be brought against Trump.

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The reason I am opposed to this partisan drive to impeach Trump is that some Democrats are being as stupid as some Republicans were. The Republican attempt to impeach Pres. Clinton was stupid! The desire of some Republicans to impeach Pres. Obama was stupid! Now some Democrats are imitating some Republicans by making the stupid, and partisan, demand for Pres. Trump to be impeached. For once I agree with Rep. Pelosi, she doesn't think there are grounds for bringing impeachment proceedings against Trump. Only once in our country's history has the attempt to impeach our President been done for legitimate reasons. That was when an attempt was made to impeach Pres. Nixon.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315638 - 09/19/19 07:59 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Posts: 17089
I'm curious, if there is "nothing you can do about them", what is the premise of this thread? I've opined that "naming and shaming" is something we can do, is that acceptable? Is investigating appropriate? If there are "credible allegations" is it not incumbent upon the proper authorities to investigate? Can we at least acknowledge that "credible information" exists on a number of issues that bear further investigation?

Is it appropriate for government employees to deliberately thwart the investigative process? Should they be punished? These are questions I believe directly germane to the topic. What is your opinion on these suggestions?

[As an aside, the "burden of proof" issue is quite complicated, and does not, in fact, ever need to be "beyond a reasonable doubt" in most circumstances, including impeachment. It only applies, specifically, to criminal proceedings, and even then only to the final verdict. It also moves back and forth between the parties during the course of most proceedings. ]

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#315639 - 09/19/19 08:04 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Returning to the central question of the thread: what can be done about corruption is: expose it, shame it, prosecute it when possible, and reject it in honor, and furtherance, of our venerated Constitution.

The biggest source of corruption in our government is not the man who resides at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave for four or eight years. It is the 535 people who work at 1 1st Street NE.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315640 - 09/19/19 08:21 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I'm curious, if there is "nothing you can do about them", what is the premise of this thread? I've opined that "naming and shaming" is something we can do, is that acceptable? Is investigating appropriate? If there are "credible allegations" is it not incumbent upon the proper authorities to investigate? Can we at least acknowledge that "credible information" exists on a number of issues that bear further investigation?

Is it appropriate for government employees to deliberately thwart the investigative process? Should they be punished? These are questions I believe directly germane to the topic. What is your opinion on these suggestions?

[As an aside, the "burden of proof" issue is quite complicated, and does not, in fact, ever need to be "beyond a reasonable doubt" in most circumstances, including impeachment. It only applies, specifically, to criminal proceedings, and even then only to the final verdict. It also moves back and forth between the parties during the course of most proceedings. ]
Since the over two year investigation into alleged criminal behavior by Trump, The Mueller Report found nothing that warrants bringing charges against or impeachment proceedings against him, there is nothing about it that can be done me. As I have said several times it is up to the House of Representatives wants to do something about it. And as I explained in my comment, that I had to post a second time, there has only been one time in our country's history that impeachment proceedings against a President have been justified.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315648 - 09/19/19 11:00 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17089
Is this the one? Or the second one?

I cannot believe you have read the Mueller report, given your statement "The Mueller Report found nothing that warrants bringing charges against or impeachment proceedings against him," It is simply not possible to reconcile that with the Mueller report.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#315656 - 09/20/19 04:15 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Is this the one? Or the second one?

I cannot believe you have read the Mueller report, given your statement "The Mueller Report found nothing that warrants bringing charges against or impeachment proceedings against him," It is simply not possible to reconcile that with the Mueller report.

You have your partisan bias NW and I have mine. Your liberal bias is why you think The Mueller Report does warrant bringing charges or impeachment proceedings against Pres. Trump. Because I don't agree with what you believe about The Mueller Report you doubt that I have read it. My conservative bias thinks it does not. My belief is backed up Alan Dershowitz.
Quote:
As to the actual Mueller report, Dershowitz said that the special counsel got the law "completely wrong on obstruction of justice."

"[I]n my introduction, I show how Mueller got the law completely wrong on obstruction of justice," Dershowitz said. "And I lay out what the law on obstruction is. And you cannot be charged with obstruction if youíre the president and you simply exercise your constitutional authority to fire Comey or anyone else. I lay that out carefully."
While you might be an excellent attorney I will believe Alan Dershowitz instead of you.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#315657 - 09/20/19 04:22 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Posts: 17089
Of course you would. He's a Fox commentator, a Trump acolyte, and used to be a rational person. I do thank you, though, for acknowledging you haven't read it. I have. Dershowitz has no credibility anymore. His argument is nonsensical.

What I don't understand, my friend, is why you so adamantly refuse to investigate for yourself and are content with simply following talking head instructions.

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#315659 - 09/20/19 04:43 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Of course you would. He's a Fox commentator, a Trump acolyte, and used to be a rational person. I do thank you, though, for acknowledging you haven't read it. I have. Dershowitz has no credibility anymore. His argument is nonsensical.

Alan Dershowitz This is what happens when someone disagrees with the great and mighty OZ, they cease to be a rational person. Appear on FOX News and support Pres. Trump one time, according to the great and mighty OZ, you don't have any credibility and your arguments are nonsensical. Then because I disagree with the great and mighty OZ he knows that you have not read The Mueller Report. In fact the great and mighty OZ makes a statement he cannot prove, that I haven't read The Mueller Report. The only basis for that completely erroneous claim is that I dared to disagree with the great and mighty OZ.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315660 - 09/20/19 04:58 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
What I don't understand, my friend, is why you so adamantly refuse to investigate for yourself and are content with simply following talking head instructions.
Another completely erroneous claim by the great and mighty OZ. To follow the instructions of the talking heads, a snide reference to FOX News, I would have to watch them. I cannot and do not watch any cable news program because I don't have cable. But the great and mighty OZ just makes the mistaken assumption that because I'm a conservative I don't investigate anything and believe what I am told by the talking heads that I don't watch. Apparently the great and mighty OZ thinks that only FOX News has talking heads but MSNBC, ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, other cable news networks don't.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
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#315667 - 09/20/19 01:53 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
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Not buying ANY of your "I don't have cable" argument because (A) you've been a candidate for public office, so I know you get your media somewhere.
I am guessing the internet, which is so chock full of Fox News (B) that you don't NEED cable. Just go to Breitbart or Townhall, or a hundred other pubs.

Which I know you do, because you've linked to various right wing pubs that often DO feature a ton of FNC content.

Not to mention, Fox has the usual local Fox affiliate in the Twin Cities.
Now tell us you don't have a TV set.
Same response: THE INTERNET
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#315668 - 09/20/19 02:16 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Other than ad hominem snark, it appears quite thoroughly, ya got nothing, friend Hatrack. Regurgitated talking points, whatever their source, does not information or argument make. You have demonstrated no depth of knowledge on the subject. No need to respond, frankly. I could write the script for you.

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#315673 - 09/20/19 03:36 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Other than ad hominem snark, it appears quite thoroughly, ya got nothing, friend Hatrack. Regurgitated talking points, whatever their source, does not information or argument make. You have demonstrated no depth of knowledge on the subject. No need to respond, frankly. I could write the script for you.
According to NW Ponderer I've got nothing because I don't agree with NW Ponderer. I quote one of the most respected legal minds in the country, Alan Dershowitz, but because he doesn't agree with NW Ponderer, he too is wrong. To reject and condemn the views of anyone who doesn't agree with you is not participating in a debate. It is the delusional belief that you right and everybody else is wrong. Then to say that because I don't agree with the NW Ponderer I have no depth of knowledge on the subject is BULLSHIT! NW Ponderer does not respect my right to have an opinion that is different from his. Since he does not respect my right to disagree with him, he has lost any respect I had for him.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315674 - 09/20/19 03:58 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Offline

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aw shucks, Senator, you had none to begin with.

But regardless of who might be right or wrong, your party is self destructing before our very eyes. A veritable pit of corruption, deceit, and greed.
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"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#315685 - 09/21/19 03:31 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Other than ad hominem snark, it appears quite thoroughly, ya got nothing, friend Hatrack. Regurgitated talking points, whatever their source, does not information or argument make. You have demonstrated no depth of knowledge on the subject. No need to respond, frankly. I could write the script for you.
According to NW Ponderer I've got nothing because I don't agree with NW Ponderer. I quote one of the most respected legal minds in the country, Alan Dershowitz, but because he doesn't agree with NW Ponderer, he too is wrong. To reject and condemn the views of anyone who doesn't agree with you is not participating in a debate. It is the delusional belief that you right and everybody else is wrong. Then to say that because I don't agree with the NW Ponderer I have no depth of knowledge on the subject is BULLSHIT! NW Ponderer does not respect my right to have an opinion that is different from his. Since he does not respect my right to disagree with him, he has lost any respect I had for him.
Hatrack, my friend. I do not wish to prolong this useless digression, but seriously, that is one of the most hypocritical posts I have read in a very long time.

I have asked over a series of posts for you to provide some substance to your dismissal of evidence. Specifically, "You have demonstrated no depth of knowledge on the subject." That has not changed. Saying "Yes I do" does not provide evidence of any depth of knowledge - or frankly even passing knowledge. That is not an attack on YOU but the ARGUMENT.

Instead you have dismissed every shred of evidence, and every citation to such evidence, with a simple "partisan" moniker, refused to address the substance, and provided NOTHING in response. Then you have the temerity to say "To reject and condemn the views of anyone who doesn't agree with you is not participating in a debate." Seriously?! You have done nothing but that. Repeatedly, derisively, and without substance. Even the eventual reference to Alan Dershowitz only confirmed my previous assertion that you rely on "talking heads" rather than personal investigation and observation. I asked for your opinion about the detailed and non-partisan elements underlying the articles.

I have great respect for informed opinions, which implies the ability to address the substance with, among other things, citations and links that inform the discussion. You have not only failed to do so, you have been insulting and irascible in nearly every response, and intransigent in refusing to provide support. You're not playing well with others, and I tried to end that game, but you persist. That, again, is "trolling": "a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion[.]" As a poster, I don't have a lot of tolerance for that kind of argumentation.

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#315686 - 09/21/19 03:52 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
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Quote:
... previous assertion that you rely on "talking heads" ...

It's revealing that Trump is currently relying heavily on "partisan" as a dismissal of arguments.
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#315688 - 09/21/19 04:52 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Instead you have dismissed every shred of evidence, and every citation to such evidence, with a simple "partisan" moniker, refused to address the substance, and provided NOTHING in response. Then you have the temerity to say "To reject and condemn the views of anyone who doesn't agree with you is not participating in a debate." Seriously?! You have done nothing but that. Repeatedly, derisively, and without substance. Even the eventual reference to Alan Dershowitz only confirmed my previous assertion that you rely on "talking heads" rather than personal investigation and observation. I asked for your opinion about the detailed and non-partisan elements underlying the articles.
This is NOT dismissing something as partisan?

"Of course you would. He's a Fox commentator, a Trump acolyte, and used to be a rational person. I do thank you, though, for acknowledging you haven't read it. I have. Dershowitz has no credibility anymore. His argument is nonsensical."

Alan Dershowitz, who is one of the most respected legal scholars in the US and not a "talking head", says something you disagree with and he is wrong. Someone who is a "Trump acolyte" would not be asked to write the introduction to The Mueller Report. Alan Dershowitz wrote the introduction to the report because he is one if the most respected legal scholars in the country. That he did completely destroys your claim that he doesn't have any credibility. Your entire comment to reject what he has to say is blindly, unabashedly, and 100% partisan! If Alan Dershowitz is a "talking head" he is one for ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, and other liberal media news networks. But all he has to do is be on FOX News and say that The Mueller Report does not show that Pres. Trump obstructed an investigation and he no longer has any credibility and his arguments are nonsensical. Can any comment be more partisan than that? No, that is extremely partisan. Apparently a partisan is someone who disagrees with you while person who agrees with you is credible and makes sensible arguments.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
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#315690 - 09/21/19 06:11 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
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I think torturing logic should be illegal.
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#315727 - 09/22/19 04:00 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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This is getting tedious (and tendentious), S. Hatrack. You are wrong. You are not even close to the mark, and you STILL have provided NO SUBSTANCE. If you will follow your own quote without running it through your uber-partisan blender, you could see the error of your comment. [Mind you, I have no expectation of that happening.] Specifically, I said, "His argument is nonsensical." NOTE: THIS DEMONSTRATES I READ IT, and rejected the SUBSTANCE of his comment. Instead, you ignore the meat and go for the sizzle.

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Instead you have dismissed every shred of evidence, and every citation to such evidence, with a simple "partisan" moniker, refused to address the substance, and provided NOTHING in response. Then you have the temerity to say "To reject and condemn the views of anyone who doesn't agree with you is not participating in a debate." Seriously?! You have done nothing but that. Repeatedly, derisively, and without substance. Even the eventual reference to Alan Dershowitz only confirmed my previous assertion that you rely on "talking heads" rather than personal investigation and observation. I asked for your opinion about the detailed and non-partisan elements underlying the articles.
This is NOT dismissing something as partisan?

"Of course you would. He's a Fox commentator, a Trump acolyte, and used to be a rational person. I do thank you, though, for acknowledging you haven't read it. I have. Dershowitz has no credibility anymore. His argument is nonsensical."


Again, this is trolling 101. It has nothing to do with the thread, is calculated to take the thread off post and adds NOTHING to the conversation.


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#315732 - 09/22/19 04:47 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Offline

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Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Alan Dershowitz, who is one of the most respected legal scholars in the US


Yes, yes, defending Jeffery Epstein and being accused of rape is what he's most recently known for.

That gets you LOTS of respect in the Republican Party. Maybe a little less so among Democrats.
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"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#315734 - 09/22/19 05:04 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Posts: 1590
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
This is getting tedious (and tendentious), S. Hatrack. You are wrong. You are not even close to the mark, and you STILL have provided NO SUBSTANCE. If you will follow your own quote without running it through your uber-partisan blender, you could see the error of your comment. [Mind you, I have no expectation of that happening.] Specifically, I said, "His argument is nonsensical." NOTE: THIS DEMONSTRATES I READ IT, and rejected the SUBSTANCE of his comment. Instead, you ignore the meat and go for the sizzle.

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Instead you have dismissed every shred of evidence, and every citation to such evidence, with a simple "partisan" moniker, refused to address the substance, and provided NOTHING in response. Then you have the temerity to say "To reject and condemn the views of anyone who doesn't agree with you is not participating in a debate." Seriously?! You have done nothing but that. Repeatedly, derisively, and without substance. Even the eventual reference to Alan Dershowitz only confirmed my previous assertion that you rely on "talking heads" rather than personal investigation and observation. I asked for your opinion about the detailed and non-partisan elements underlying the articles.
This is NOT dismissing something as partisan?

"Of course you would. He's a Fox commentator, a Trump acolyte, and used to be a rational person. I do thank you, though, for acknowledging you haven't read it. I have. Dershowitz has no credibility anymore. His argument is nonsensical."


Again, this is trolling 101. It has nothing to do with the thread, is calculated to take the thread off post and adds NOTHING to the conversation.


If Alan Dershowitz's arguments do not make any sense, as you so partisanly claim, why would he be asked to write the introduction to The Mueller Report? Here is the part of my reply that you ignored. Why did you ignore it NW? Because it proves you are ultra partisan one here not me. In your ultra partisan mind anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Alan Dershowitz, who is one of the most respected legal scholars in the US and not a "talking head", says something you disagree with and he is wrong. Someone who is a "Trump acolyte" would not be asked to write the introduction to The Mueller Report. Alan Dershowitz wrote the introduction to the report because he is one if the most respected legal scholars in the country. That he did completely destroys your claim that he doesn't have any credibility. Your entire comment to reject what he has to say is blindly, unabashedly, and 100% partisan! If Alan Dershowitz is a "talking head" he is one for ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, and other liberal media news networks. But all he has to do is be on FOX News and say that The Mueller Report does not show that Pres. Trump obstructed an investigation and he no longer has any credibility and his arguments are nonsensical. Can any comment be more partisan than that? No, that is extremely partisan. Apparently a partisan is someone who disagrees with you while person who agrees with you is credible and makes sensible arguments.

_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
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#315752 - 09/22/19 11:52 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Because it isn't true. I was trying to save you the embarrassment of correcting you in public yet again. DERSHOWITZ wrote A BOOK and cribbed the contents from Mueller. It's not the "official report", it's a friggin make-a-buck project. The Irony of Mueller-Report Profiteering (Atlantic, subscription); The Mueller Report Is Free To Read, But It's Also A Bestseller (npr). There are at least a dozen such books (I have the WaPo version) - kind of a choose-your-own-adventure thing. If you'd actually read it, you would know that.
Quote:
The top spot is occupied by a version published by Skyhorse Publishing, which includes an introduction by Alan Dershowitz, a lawyer and Trump supporter who has been critical of the Mueller investigation.

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#315753 - 09/23/19 12:25 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Greger Offline

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Quote:
a lawyer and Trump supporter who has been critical of the Mueller investigation.

A partisan.
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#315784 - 09/24/19 04:33 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8771
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Quote:
Because it isn't true.


crickets........

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#315786 - 09/24/19 06:29 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41804
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Quote:
Alan Dershowitz, who is one of the most respected legal scholars in the US


Alan Dershowitz is not a respected legal scholar or great mind. He is a barely sentient nudist who goes on TV and licks Donald Trump's ass. That's it. Hmm

Yes Trump is Republican and Dershowitz is a Democrat - but their bond is Jeffrey Epstein. crazy

The media needs to stop...booking...Dershowitz.
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#315878 - 09/25/19 10:09 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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That all of the liberals here have thrown Alan Dershowitz "under the bus" is an excellent example of the diversity of opinion that is not allowed by liberals. All someone has to do to be trashed and become a former liberal is to support a Republican. Had Dershowitz called for Trump to be impeached he would be the greatest legal mind in the country as he once was when he agreed with the official point of view.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315888 - 09/26/19 12:24 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Offline

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I'll happily throw anybody under the bus who supports Trump, then drive behind the bus just to "make sure".

Nothing personal, it's purely a political thing.

You should be pleased that Donald Trump's chance of re-election has grown dramatically since we last talked. That should ease your mind about any bi-partisan corruption occurring. Nothing bi-partisan is going to come out of this administration. Unless he can figure out a way to make us own ourselves...like forcing an impeachment. That could do it...Once more Democrats seize defeat from the jaws of victory!

Quote:
an excellent example of the diversity of opinion that is not allowed by liberals.

Nosir, we embrace diversity in a lot of things but if your opinions are not liberal then no, we aren't that diverse or that stupid, we are liberals, we believe that everyone has the same rights and privileges under the law.
It's a freedom thing, you wouldn't understand.
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#315890 - 09/26/19 12:55 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
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Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Greger
Nosir, we embrace diversity in a lot of things but if your opinions are not liberal then no, we aren't that diverse or that stupid, we are liberals, we believe that everyone has the same rights and privileges under the law.
It's a freedom thing, you wouldn't understand.

Who decides what is the liberal point of view? The unanimity of the condemnation of Dershowitz do not show any diversity.

I don't understand freedom? I'm defending a liberal's right to disagree with the official liberal opinion and the liberals here are throwing him under the bus. Greger, your understanding of freedom is equal to your understanding of the Republican Party, which is zip, zero, nada, and not at all!
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315892 - 09/26/19 01:12 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
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And you are kind of embarrassing...
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#315895 - 09/26/19 01:30 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Posts: 17089
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
That all of the liberals here have thrown Alan Dershowitz "under the bus" is an excellent example of the diversity of opinion that is not allowed by liberals. All someone has to do to be trashed and become a former liberal is to support a Republican. Had Dershowitz called for Trump to be impeached he would be the greatest legal mind in the country as he once was when he agreed with the official point of view.
it might have shown he was legally competent, at least.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#315896 - 09/26/19 01:36 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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The funny thing, friend Hatrack, is that you are only defending Dershowitz because he is defending Trump. You don't know what his position is. You don't know his legal reasoning (or lack thereof), and you don't care. You haven't read the report, or even Dershowitz version of it. All that matters is, he pisses liberals (and other sentient beings) off.

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#315897 - 09/26/19 01:45 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Offline

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Quote:
Greger, your understanding of freedom is equal to your understanding of the Republican Party, which is zip, zero, nada, and not at all!

You understand that we are talking about the party who elected Donald Trump...I think it's you whose understanding of things is a bit whack.
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#315899 - 09/26/19 02:13 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Here is a great way to get rid of the bipartisan corruption in our government. The Daily Kos
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315903 - 09/26/19 03:13 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
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Do you know how long I've been railing about that, my friend? Since 1979.

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#315913 - 09/26/19 01:21 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
The funny thing, friend Hatrack, is that you are only defending Dershowitz because he is defending Trump. You don't know what his position is. You don't know his legal reasoning (or lack thereof), and you don't care. You haven't read the report, or even Dershowitz version of it. All that matters is, he pisses liberals (and other sentient beings) off.
Yes, I am defending Dershowitz because he is a Trump supporter. I am defending his right to believe what he wants to. I am defending the fact that he pisses liberals off and is a sentient being no matter what he believes. Doing that is what is known as freedom. The freedom to support any political candidate you want to. What his position is, what his legal reasoning is, does not matter! What matters is his right to do and believe what he wants to. But he has committed the terrible crime of being a TRUMP SUPPORTER and that automatically makes whatever he says wrong!
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315914 - 09/26/19 01:35 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
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Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
What his position is, what his legal reasoning is, does not matter!

See, right there is the core of the matter. Regressives believe only in winning, and reality can go to hell...
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#315915 - 09/26/19 02:04 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
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Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
What his position is, what his legal reasoning is, does not matter!

See, right there is the core of the matter. Regressives believe only in winning, and reality can go to hell...
What a crock of s***! Winning or losing has nothing to do with supporting freedom. As someone who supports freedom I defend a person's right to be wrong. I defend unpopular opinions, the more unpopular they are the more I defend them. Does that makes me a Regressive? Hell NO! To defend freedom is one of the most progressive ideas in human history.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315916 - 09/26/19 02:06 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
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So you are a Progressive?
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#315917 - 09/26/19 02:24 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: logtroll
So you are a Progressive?
Probably not by yours or by the common understanding of the word.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315918 - 09/26/19 02:27 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
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I appreciate that you can afford the word "progressive" with a range of meanings. Does this meant that your mind is opening to a range of meanings for the word "socialism", as well?
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You canít solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#315919 - 09/26/19 02:28 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Greger]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
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Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Greger, your understanding of freedom is equal to your understanding of the Republican Party, which is zip, zero, nada, and not at all!

You understand that we are talking about the party who elected Donald Trump...I think it's you whose understanding of things is a bit whack.
If Trump is a Republican that might be true. Trump is a party of one. Even if he did get the endorsement of the Republican Party he is and always will be a party of one. That one being Donald J. Trump.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315920 - 09/26/19 02:33 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
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Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: logtroll
I appreciate that you can afford the word "progressive" with a range of meanings. Does this meant that your mind is opening to a range of meanings for the word "socialism", as well?
Yes. When I use the word Socialism and spell it with a capital S I am talking about the economic system*. When spelled with a lower case s I am talking about the word's wide range of meanings. Unless the word is used to begin a sentence and then it is always spelled with a capital S. The same thing goes for the word progressive.

*How long the economic system of Socialism has existed is unknown because it has only been known as such for about 300 years.


Edited by Senator Hatrack (09/26/19 03:11 PM)
Edit Reason: I added some important information about Socialism
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#315924 - 09/26/19 04:40 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
The funny thing, friend Hatrack, is that you are only defending Dershowitz because he is defending Trump. You don't know what his position is. You don't know his legal reasoning (or lack thereof), and you don't care. You haven't read the report, or even Dershowitz version of it. All that matters is, he pisses liberals (and other sentient beings) off.

Again you have made the bogus claim that I have not read The Mueller Report. Unless you are spying on me you have no way in hell of knowing what I have or have not read! The only possible basis for that bogus claim is because my opinion of it does not agree with yours. Every time you have made that bogus claim NW you are showing that you do not believe in freedom. To believe in freedom requires the acceptance that others might disagree with you. That you make that bogus claim is an indication that you are like Donald J. Trump. He doesn't like it when people disagree with him. His bogus claim is that it is "fake news." Yours is that I haven't read The Mueller Report or Alan Dershowitz's introduction to it. Contrary to your bogus claim I have read both of them.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315926 - 09/26/19 04:53 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
I'm glad you are changing your ways. I only posted that because you have been completely unobservant of my small "s" socialism references heretofore.
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#315934 - 09/26/19 06:34 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14299
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
I am defending the fact that he pisses liberals off


We are currently experiencing a glut of people like that.
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#315936 - 09/26/19 07:07 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Yes. When I use the word Socialism and spell it with a capital S I am talking about the economic system*. When spelled with a lower case s I am talking about the word's wide range of meanings.

Jeepers, Hatrack, I had a few minutes at lunch so I searched your posts for the use of both big "S" and little "s" Ssocialism and, I am so sorry to have to reveal this, but you used the forms interchangeably to refer to Socialism (standard political def), but never to any other meanings of socialism.

Major bummer, dude.
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#315937 - 09/26/19 07:09 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
I am defending the fact that he pisses liberals off


We are currently experiencing a glut of people like that.
And there isn't a glut of people that piss conservatives off?
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315938 - 09/26/19 07:12 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Yes. When I use the word Socialism and spell it with a capital S I am talking about the economic system*. When spelled with a lower case s I am talking about the word's wide range of meanings.

Jeepers, Hatrack, I had a few minutes at lunch so I searched your posts for the use of both big "S" and little "s" Ssocialism and, I am so sorry to have to reveal this, but you used the forms interchangeably to refer to Socialism (standard political def), but never to any other meanings of socialism.

Major bummer, dude.
blush frown
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315939 - 09/26/19 07:48 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6838
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
[Mr.] Donald J. Trump. He doesn't like it when people disagree with him

He doesn't like it when people disagree with him because he is a narcissist and the true and valid things people say about him do not fit into his delusional vision of himself.

Once you accept Mr Trump is a narcissist, the Emperor will be a man standing without clothes.


Edited by rporter314 (09/26/19 07:56 PM)
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#315941 - 09/26/19 08:51 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: rporter314]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: rporter314
Quote:
[Mr.] Donald J. Trump. He doesn't like it when people disagree with him

He doesn't like it when people disagree with him because he is a narcissist and the true and valid things people say about him do not fit into his delusional vision of himself.

Once you accept Mr Trump is a narcissist, the Emperor will be a man standing without clothes.
It is human nature to dislike it when someone says something you disagree with. To certain extent anyone who runs for the presidency is a narcissist.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315942 - 09/26/19 09:41 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17089
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
The funny thing, friend Hatrack, is that you are only defending Dershowitz because he is defending Trump. You don't know what his position is. You don't know his legal reasoning (or lack thereof), and you don't care. You haven't read the report, or even Dershowitz version of it. All that matters is, he pisses liberals (and other sentient beings) off.

Again you have made the bogus claim that I have not read The Mueller Report. Unless you are spying on me you have no way in hell of knowing what I have or have not read! The only possible basis for that bogus claim is because my opinion of it does not agree with yours. Every time you have made that bogus claim NW you are showing that you do not believe in freedom. To believe in freedom requires the acceptance that others might disagree with you. That you make that bogus claim is an indication that you are like Donald J. Trump. He doesn't like it when people disagree with him. His bogus claim is that it is "fake news." Yours is that I haven't read The Mueller Report or Alan Dershowitz's introduction to it. Contrary to your bogus claim I have read both of them.
Which I think is a long-winded way of demonstrating I am correct. It's an observation, my friend. If you had, indeed, read either the Mueller report or Dershowitz's defense you could provide some details or context. Since you have never done that, I reach the natural conclusion the you haven't read it, especially as a number of assertions are directly contradicted by the contents. That's really all there is to it. You've never proven the observation wrong.

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#315947 - 09/26/19 10:45 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1590
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
The funny thing, friend Hatrack, is that you are only defending Dershowitz because he is defending Trump. You don't know what his position is. You don't know his legal reasoning (or lack thereof), and you don't care. You haven't read the report, or even Dershowitz version of it. All that matters is, he pisses liberals (and other sentient beings) off.

Again you have made the bogus claim that I have not read The Mueller Report. Unless you are spying on me you have no way in hell of knowing what I have or have not read! The only possible basis for that bogus claim is because my opinion of it does not agree with yours. Every time you have made that bogus claim NW you are showing that you do not believe in freedom. To believe in freedom requires the acceptance that others might disagree with you. That you make that bogus claim is an indication that you are like Donald J. Trump. He doesn't like it when people disagree with him. His bogus claim is that it is "fake news." Yours is that I haven't read The Mueller Report or Alan Dershowitz's introduction to it. Contrary to your bogus claim I have read both of them.
Which I think is a long-winded way of demonstrating I am correct. It's an observation, my friend. If you had, indeed, read either the Mueller report or Dershowitz's defense you could provide some details or context. Since you have never done that, I reach the natural conclusion the you haven't read it, especially as a number of assertions are directly contradicted by the contents. That's really all there is to it. You've never proven the observation wrong.
I didn't read the report with the expectation that I might have to post quotes from it. I read it for my own edification not debate it. I got the report from the library and don't have it on hand to use as a source for quotes. I don't remember you posting any quotes from it. Since you didn't, that I remember seeing, I can make the claim that you never read it either. Again, your claim that I didn't read it is BS! It is your natural, and biased, conclusion that my assertions are directly contradicted by the content of it. So, make all the biased conclusions you want to because you can't prove I didn't read it.
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I'm a conservative because I question authority.
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