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#315367 - 09/15/19 04:04 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Hyar’s another Reepublicken, the leader of the party:

_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#315368 - 09/15/19 04:04 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
That America has become the "policeman of the world" is not directly mentioned in our Constitution. However, Article I, Section 8, clause 12 it states that our government has the authority "To provide and maintain a Navy..." One of the first tasks of our Navy was to protect our trade in the Mediterranean Sea. In essence it was "policing" that body of water. Abortions? No, because there aren't any medical procedures mentioned in our Constitution. Nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction are necessary for our government to protect our country. Since the book that started Capitalism, The Wealth of Nations, was first published in 1776 we still had a mercantile economy. Capitalism became our economic system due to the fact that the resources for a Capitalist economy were in abundance. And no, healthcare does not fit under the general Welfare clause.

Originally Posted By: logtroll
Wonderful! We strongly agree that there is a lot going on today that the Constitution did not address. I am curious, though, as to why the health of Americans is not a subject of the general welfare. Seems like purt'near a definitional situation.

It might be due to the quality of healthcare back then. But probably it was because our Constitution was written to limit what our government could do. That limitations on what a government could do was something that hadn't been done before.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315369 - 09/15/19 04:13 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
What are the Constitutional limits on the General welfare?
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#315371 - 09/15/19 05:00 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: logtroll
What are the Constitutional limits on the General welfare?

To determine what they are it is best to read what the author of the clause, James Madison, said about it. Alexander Hamilton's interpretation of it has been used to expand it beyond what Madison intended. Hamilton's interpretation is not reliable for three reasons.
1) Hamilton wasn't at the Constitutional Convention for the entire time it was in session.
2) Hamilton wasn't an active participant in the convention.
3) Hamilton wasn't a voting member of the convention.
Voting in the convention was done by states and a majority of the delegates from a state had to agree on the vote. The delegation form New York consisted of three men, John Lansing, Robert Yates, and Alexander Hamilton. Lansing and Yates were at the convention from May 25th to July 10th. When they left they never returned. Since 2/3 of the NY delegation was not there Hamilton was not allowed to vote on what was being debated. Hamilton was at the convention from May 25th to June 30th. He returned for 1 day August 13th and then returned on September 6th. The general welfare clause was debated on August 22 when Alexander Hamilton was not there. In that he did not participate in the debates of the clause his opinion of it not relevant.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315372 - 09/15/19 05:10 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
I see... there are no limits, then.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#315373 - 09/15/19 05:16 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42978
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Quote:
What are the Constitutional limits on the General welfare?

In United States v. Butler, 56 S. Ct. 312, 297 U.S. 1, 80 L. Ed. 477 (1936), the SCOTUS agreed that Congress has broad powers to spend federal money on our Country's general welfare, but with limited funding. The decision essentially combined Madison's interpretation of the clause that "spending is not unlimited" and Hamilton's interpretation of the clause to mean Congress the power to spend without limitation for the broader general welfare of the nation.
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#315375 - 09/15/19 05:29 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: logtroll
I see... there are no limits, then.
No, according to Madison, the author of it, the clause, like the rest of our government is limited. To limit our government is why they wrote our Constitution.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315376 - 09/15/19 05:33 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17399
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
And no, healthcare does not fit under the general Welfare clause.
On what do you base this (erroneous) opinion, my friend? I know the answer, actually, but it is based upon an ideological, not legal or constitutional basis. The framers would be surprised by your position:
Quote:
On July 16, 1798, President John Adams signed the first Federal public health law, "An act for the relief of sick and disabled Seamen." This assessed every seaman at American ports 20 cents a month. This was the first prepaid medical care plan in the United States. The monies were used for the care of sick seamen and the building of seamen's hospitals. This act created the Marine Hospital Service under the Department of the Treasury. In 1802 Marine Hospitals were operating in Boston; Newport; Norfolk; and Charleston, S.C. and medical services were contracted in other ports
History of Health Care Reform (Wikipedia) Hmmm. That sounds kinda familiar, actually.

The Supreme Court has, on various occasions, disagreed with your position as well.
Quote:
In Steward Machine Co. v. Davis, the Court sustained a tax imposed on employers to provide unemployment benefits to individual workers. It was argued that the tax and a state credit that went with the state’s tax were “weapons of coercion, destroying or impairing the autonomy of the States.” The Supreme Court, however, held that relief of unemployment was a legitimate object of federal spending under the “general welfare” clause, and that the Social Security Act, which also included old age benefits for individuals so they might not be destitute in their old age, as well as provisions for child welfare and maternal child health projects, was a legitimate attempt to solve these problems in cooperation with the states. Subsequent Supreme Court decisions have not questioned Congress’s policy decisions as to what kinds of spending programs are in pursuit of the “general welfare,” and so numerous programs have been funded in such diverse areas as education, housing, veterans’ benefits, the environment, welfare, health care, scientific research, the arts, community development, and public financing of election campaigns. The Supreme Court accords great deference to a legislative decision by Congress that a particular spending program provides for the general welfare. Indeed, the High Court has suggested that the question whether a spending program provides for the general welfare is one that is entirely within the discretion of the legislative branch.
Health Care: Constitutional Rights and Legislative Powers (Congressional Research Service)

And, trust me, I have argued, and will argue, that numerous decisions of the Supreme Court are just wrong, constitutionally - as they have been egregiously wrong regarding campaign finance, the Second Amendment, and Gerrymandering - so I am sympathetic to legal precedence not going where I want it to. But, since this has been federal practice for over 200 years, that horse left the barn a very, very long time ago.

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#315377 - 09/15/19 05:39 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17399
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: logtroll
I see... there are no limits, then.
No, according to Madison, the author of it, the clause, like the rest of our government is limited. To limit our government is why they wrote our Constitution.
I get so tired of shooting down this same erroneous and, frankly, idiotic claptrap over and over again. The purpose of the Constitution was not to limit our government, but the opposite: to create and expand the role of the central government. That is just incontrovertible fact.

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#315378 - 09/15/19 05:42 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17399
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: logtroll
What are the Constitutional limits on the General welfare?

To determine what they are it is best to read what the author of the clause, James Madison, said about it. Alexander Hamilton's interpretation of it has been used to expand it beyond what Madison intended. Hamilton's interpretation is not reliable for three reasons.
1) Hamilton wasn't at the Constitutional Convention for the entire time it was in session.
2) Hamilton wasn't an active participant in the convention.
3) Hamilton wasn't a voting member of the convention.
Voting in the convention was done by states and a majority of the delegates from a state had to agree on the vote. The delegation form New York consisted of three men, John Lansing, Robert Yates, and Alexander Hamilton. Lansing and Yates were at the convention from May 25th to July 10th. When they left they never returned. Since 2/3 of the NY delegation was not there Hamilton was not allowed to vote on what was being debated. Hamilton was at the convention from May 25th to June 30th. He returned for 1 day August 13th and then returned on September 6th. The general welfare clause was debated on August 22 when Alexander Hamilton was not there. In that he did not participate in the debates of the clause his opinion of it not relevant.
Make a note of this post, my friends. This is a shining example of what is known as "sophistry".

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