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#315379 - 09/15/19 07:04 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1604
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: logtroll
I see... there are no limits, then.
No, according to Madison, the author of it, the clause, like the rest of our government is limited. To limit our government is why they wrote our Constitution.
I get so tired of shooting down this same erroneous and, frankly, idiotic claptrap over and over again. The purpose of the Constitution was not to limit our government, but the opposite: to create and expand the role of the central government. That is just incontrovertible fact.

What you apparently cannot comprehend is that our Constitution was written to create a limited central government! They realized that the weak central government of the Articles of Confederation wasn't working. Did our Constitution expand the role of the central government? Yes, but not as much as you erroneously think it did. When our Founding Fathers wrote our Constitution they lived in the state of Virginia or the state of New York or the state of Massachusetts, etc. Our Founding Fathers were citizens of their respective states first and the United States of America second! To them the word state was synonymous with the word country. They were extremely reluctant to give the new central government any power. That is why our Constitution was sent to conventions of delegates from the various states to be ratified. The IX and X Amendments to our Constitution are limitations on the power of our central government.
Quote:
The IX Amendment
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
The X Amendment
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

What you should be tired of is shooting yourself in the foot. You do so when claim that our Constitution was not written to limit the power of "slightly enlarged" central government.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
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#315380 - 09/15/19 07:24 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1604
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
[quote=logtroll]What are the Constitutional limits on the General welfare?

To determine what they are it is best to read what the author of the clause, James Madison, said about it. Alexander Hamilton's interpretation of it has been used to expand it beyond what Madison intended. Hamilton's interpretation is not reliable for three reasons.
1) Hamilton wasn't at the Constitutional Convention for the entire time it was in session.
2) Hamilton wasn't an active participant in the convention.
3) Hamilton wasn't a voting member of the convention.
Voting in the convention was done by states and a majority of the delegates from a state had to agree on the vote. The delegation form New York consisted of three men, John Lansing, Robert Yates, and Alexander Hamilton. Lansing and Yates were at the convention from May 25th to July 10th. When they left they never returned. Since 2/3 of the NY delegation was not there Hamilton was not allowed to vote on what was being debated. Hamilton was at the convention from May 25th to June 30th. He returned for 1 day August 13th and then returned on September 6th. The general welfare clause was debated on August 22 when Alexander Hamilton was not there. In that he did not participate in the debates of the clause his opinion of it not relevant.
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Make a note of this post, my friends. This is a shining example of what is known as "sophistry".

John Lansing
Robert Lansing
Alexander Hamilton
What I wrote about the debate about Hamilton and the general Welfare clause at the Constitutional Conventions was taken from James Madison's Notes on the Constitutional Convention
Sophistry? No, documented history of the writing of our Constitution. NW Ponderer calls it sophistry because the facts about what our Constitution was written for, to create a limited central government does not agree with his incorrect interpretation of it. His so called expertise on our Constitution is supported by the authors of it. Thus he is not the expert on it that he thinks he is.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315381 - 09/15/19 09:56 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9474
Loc: One of the Mexicos
I thought the reason for the Constitution was to create a framework for a system of government.
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You can’t solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#315382 - 09/15/19 10:05 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9474
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Hold the phone! I did some deep research and I think that I found the true and correct purpose for the Constitution!! Seems it’s one of those secrets hidden in plain sight...

Quote:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
_________________________
You can’t solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#315385 - 09/15/19 01:15 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9474
Loc: One of the Mexicos
After hours of bone-wearying investigation, reading the astute and incisive opinions written herein, and even perusing Madison’s copious notes journaling the drafting of the Constitution - (did he really say that the phrase “to provide for the common defence and general welfare” was accidentally left in the text because it “went unnoticed”?) - a powerful thought came into my mind, “Why would anyone think that providing for the common defence and the general welfare of Americans is not an excellent idea?” And that it should be done at the national level makes sense, too, because, as with all forms of insurance, a larger pool works better to spread the burden of cost and lessen the overhead of management.
_________________________
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#315386 - 09/15/19 02:01 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17115
Originally Posted By: logtroll
I thought the reason for the Constitution was to create a framework for a system of government.
Exactly.
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#315393 - 09/15/19 02:50 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17115
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: logtroll
I see... there are no limits, then.
No, according to Madison, the author of it, the clause, like the rest of our government is limited. To limit our government is why they wrote our Constitution.
I forgot to amend this note previously:* Madison did not write the Constitution. He proposed numerous provisions of it, many of which were debated, discarded, adopted and/or modified by a group of individuals at the Constitutional Convention, which eventually produced a proposal that was ratified by the legislatures of the various States. He participated in most of the convention along with fifty or so other individuals. His opinion, therefore, of its meaning and purpose is... one opinion. Persuasive, perhaps, but most assuredly not definitive. There were literally hundreds of others whose opinions affected the adoption and interpretation of the words contained in it. (Remember the Federalist papers? What was that all about?)

Which brings me to my second point: Apparently, friend, you didn't follow the link I provided, so don't understand the definition of "sophistry". It is a fallacious mode of argumentation; specifically, "the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving." It is sometimes referred to as "specious reasoning." When you say, "To determine what they are it is best to read what the author of the clause, James Madison, said about it." and that "In that [Hamilton] did not participate in the debates of the clause his opinion of it not relevant." - that is an example of specious reasoning or sophistry. It is full of logical fallacies (e.g., appeal to authority), and omissions (e.g., that the only discussions/debates were those recorded by Madison).

Now, I will also admit that I love it, which is not charitable of me, when you write things that prove my point, but disprove your own. It's a habit of yours that I take guilty pleasure in.
Quote:
What you apparently cannot comprehend is that our Constitution was written to create a limited central government! They realized that the weak central government of the Articles of Confederation wasn't working. Did our Constitution expand the role of the central government? Yes[.]
Which was exactly my point. You then reload the shotgun and point it at your... well, you get the metaphor - and assert "They were extremely reluctant to give the new central government any power." Who is this "they", Kemo sahbee? And why did they do exactly that, if it was not their intention? Maybe you meant to say, "some of them"? Or, "some argued against it"?

What chaps my hide is your broad generalizations and surety that you are "right" about things, when you are not, and even when you are proved in error, refusal to recognize it as such. Yes, there are limitations on the central government - I've never argued elsewise - but the argument that "To limit our government is why they wrote our Constitution." Is. Just. Not. True.


* I originally mistyped that as "Peeviously". I thought that was an apt descriptor, and a freudian slip. Made me laugh.

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#315395 - 09/15/19 03:04 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9474
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Señor NWP,

You would do well to recall this quip of Ms. Parker:

“You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think.”
_________________________
You can’t solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#315397 - 09/15/19 03:07 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9474
Loc: One of the Mexicos
If that don’t cut the mustard, try this:

“You can't teach an old dogma new tricks.” - D. Parker
_________________________
You can’t solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#315398 - 09/15/19 03:36 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9474
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Thank you for showing that what you know about the Republican Party is wrong. You don't know how much you don't know about the Republican Party.

Hyar’s one more TopDawg Reepublurkin’:

New sexual assault allegations against Hizzoner Kavanaugh
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