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#315444 - 09/16/19 04:24 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

The wards were run by Democratic political bosses. If your ward didn't vote for and contribute to the machine your ward didn't get services from the city. The snow wasn't plowed, the garbage wasn't picked up, the police & fire departments were slow to respond. Then to get a job with the city you had to vote for and contribute to the machine. If people do that for 70 years or so it becomes a habit. That is why 90% of the wards became and stayed Democrats.


Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
And you know what? Last time Karen and I went up to Chicago, we saw HELP WANTED and NOW HIRING signs ALL over the stinking place.
That was in 2015.

I was talking about how Chicago was back in the 1940's not in 2015.


Glad you mentioned the 1940's because Karen's father was hesitant about settling down in McHenry, IL until he walked by a factory on Rt 121 and a shop steward appeared in the doorway asking if he'd like a high paying job.

"How high are we talking?", asked Bob Mitchell...the answer was roughly double what Bob had been making down in Lepanto, Arkansas where he grew up.
And it was a plant that was manufacturing a newfangled thing called a central air conditioner, which was exactly what he had gone to school for down in Arkansas.

Bob Mitchell spent the next thirty some-odd years raising his family in McHenry. All in all I'd say that the political machine up there did pretty good by the folks who lived there.
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#315445 - 09/16/19 05:02 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
It is unfortunate that you made the mistaken assumption that I was always a Republican. In my rebellious youth I was a member of the Socialist Worker's Party for a couple of years. I was also active in the Democratic Party. I was once a delegate to a Democratic Party county convention and a precinct captain for the McGovern for President campaign.


You keep bringing up YOUR REBELLIOUS YOUTH and membership in the SWP as some sort of appeal to authority, and it doesn't work, it has never worked.
My oldest brother was a SWP member too. He knows nothing about being a liberal either. Might be because he, like you, has made the mistaken assumption that the Left is "all about rebellion".

Where does one come up with such a faulty assertion?
I'll venture a guess: It comes from people who gravitate to one extreme who, when their idealism is challenged, jump to the opposite extreme and then use their new position as a bully pulpit to lob nonstop character assassination on their old position.

In essence, you're hating your former self and making everyone else pay the tab for damages...but amazingly, all you can account for is that someone on the Left said something mean to you.

Pot meet kettle...the reason I've withdrawn from most of your threads is because you can't resist the urge to peddle broad sweeping generalizations about the Left which only apply to absolute bleeding edge extremists, which of course is all you can relate to when thinking of the Left anyway.

We're all commies, and don't even think of protesting that you've never said that. You have, you do, and you continue to.
We're all communists, or if we're not, we're just ignorant because we don't realize that we're Marxists.

Seriously Hatrack, pull the beam out of your eye before whining about the splinter in ours. You do not know jack squat about ordinary liberals, and it shows.
The ONLY reason I mentioned my membership in the SWP was to show that I have not always been a Republican. I also mentioned that I was active in the Democratic Party. It was not an appeal to authority. One of my favorite sayings is "Question authority" especially if I am the authority. I do know a lot about liberals, most of my friends are liberals and they are as anti-Marxist as I am. It was a statement of who I was, nothing more, nothing less. That you read into it anything about my belief that all liberals are Marxists is the beam in your eye.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315446 - 09/16/19 05:04 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

The wards were run by Democratic political bosses. If your ward didn't vote for and contribute to the machine your ward didn't get services from the city. The snow wasn't plowed, the garbage wasn't picked up, the police & fire departments were slow to respond. Then to get a job with the city you had to vote for and contribute to the machine. If people do that for 70 years or so it becomes a habit. That is why 90% of the wards became and stayed Democrats.


Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
And you know what? Last time Karen and I went up to Chicago, we saw HELP WANTED and NOW HIRING signs ALL over the stinking place.
That was in 2015.

I was talking about how Chicago was back in the 1940's not in 2015.


Glad you mentioned the 1940's because Karen's father was hesitant about settling down in McHenry, IL until he walked by a factory on Rt 121 and a shop steward appeared in the doorway asking if he'd like a high paying job.

"How high are we talking?", asked Bob Mitchell...the answer was roughly double what Bob had been making down in Lepanto, Arkansas where he grew up.
And it was a plant that was manufacturing a newfangled thing called a central air conditioner, which was exactly what he had gone to school for down in Arkansas.

Bob Mitchell spent the next thirty some-odd years raising his family in McHenry. All in all I'd say that the political machine up there did pretty good by the folks who lived there.
The reason the big city political machines were around for a long time is because they helped people, as your example shows.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315447 - 09/16/19 05:17 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
You are correct on one point, friend Hatrack. I wrote too fast. The STATES ratified it, not the legislatures. Beyond that, the sweat of desperation mottles your brow. Do you know what a "Gish gallop" is? That seems to be what you are going for here. It is hard to keep up with all of the fallacies and misstatements incorporated in your response.

And you are not doing that?
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315448 - 09/16/19 07:52 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10148
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: logtroll
I wonder why Hatrack seldom responds to Logtroll's simple observations and questions?

I figured it out. It’s because the blenderizer thing doesn’t work when there isn’t enough ingredients available for creating a Gishmash hotdish, or as it’s known in Delaware, a confusion stew.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#315455 - 09/16/19 03:00 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17387
No, I am not. The fact that you don't recognize that is quite telling.

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#315456 - 09/16/19 03:03 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17387
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
You are correct on one point, friend Hatrack. I wrote too fast. The STATES ratified it, not the legislatures. Beyond that, the sweat of desperation mottles your brow. Do you know what a "Gish gallop" is? That seems to be what you are going for here. It is hard to keep up with all of the fallacies and misstatements incorporated in your response.


The amount of energy required to refute

LOL. I was about to post a comment on "Brandolini's law" - "The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - when I saw this. Also known as "Bullshit asymmetry"


Edited by NW Ponderer (09/16/19 03:38 PM)
Edit Reason: Corrected name of law

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#315457 - 09/16/19 03:22 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17387
I took some time to go back and read through this thread. The variety of directions it has gone has been interesting, if uninformative. Going back to my initial query, I began to wonder if there were, indeed, still conservatives at all, or if conservatism has always been a chimera. What I mean by that is that "conservatives" - going back to the early users of that term - have always appropriated concepts that did not, and do not, support their political actions.

I'll take as an example, "classical liberalism." The implications of that phrase are two-fold: First, implying long-held, thus ancient principles; second, that it is informed by "liberal" thought. I will assert here that friend Hatrack does aspire to some aspects of this in his libertarian views on social issues - LGBTQ rights and such. That is commendable, and noted. But, the phrase is more broadly and inaccurately used by neoconservatives to disguise a rather abusive and controlling mindset. There are numerous other examples I have noted in the past.

I, personally, prefer the position that Hatrack first espoused: Conservatives seek to conserve. It is a nice, concise, and understandable turn of phrase, and therefore laudable. But, in perusing history, and current usage, I find that it is not, and never has been, actually true. There are certain things that have been sought to be preserved - mostly privilege - but in other respects they are indifferent to conservation. Is, for example, drilling in the Alaskan wildlands "conservative"? Isn't preservation of pristine lands more conservative? Is preserving the gerrymander a conservative principle? Isn't protecting the right to vote and equal application of the law a more conservative principle? Similarly, how is unfettered money in politics a conservative principle? I am confused by these and other "principles" espoused by "conservatives".

Perhaps a few examples of the conservative viewpoint (as opposed to the "conservative" viewpoint) might be in order. Is it more than "keeping things the way they are (even if they are decidedly unfair)"? Or are there larger principles at work. I am genuinely interested.

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#315461 - 09/16/19 04:48 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17387
I realized that some of my phraseology in the preceding post is confusing. When I say conservative versus "conservative" what I mean is, those who are really conservative in thought versus those who use the label "conservative." I opine that the majority of actions/activities by modern "conservatives" is not conservative at all.

There are some areas that are claimed by conservatism, generally, but aren't really conservative at all - such as small government, and tax cuts. There is nothing inherently conservative in a small government, except perhaps preservation of capital. But is not conservatism interested in efficient and effective government? The same with tax cuts. If the tax cut furthers a conservative goal, perhaps, but tax cuts are not, per se conservative, and may, indeed, create inefficiencies that undermine conservative principles. For example, reducing the police force, undercutting national security, etc.

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#315472 - 09/16/19 08:25 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Quote:
A constitution defines and limits the powers of the government it creates. It therefore follows, as a natural and also a logical result, that the governmental exercise of any power not authorized by the constitution is an assumed power, and therefore illegal. Thomas Paine
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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