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#315508 - 09/17/19 02:45 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43271
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: perotista
We've had 150 plus mass shootings since 2010, almost doubling all mass shootings from 1900-2009. 10% of all mass shootings occurred between 1900-1979, 90% after, 1980-today. Guns were readily available pre-1980 with a lot less regulations and laws.

How many mass shootings were there during the 1994-2004 assault rifle ban?

smile

(Note: The Columbine massacre used previously purchased guns prior to 1994).
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#315570 - 09/18/19 12:09 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 824
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: perotista
We've had 150 plus mass shootings since 2010, almost doubling all mass shootings from 1900-2009. 10% of all mass shootings occurred between 1900-1979, 90% after, 1980-today. Guns were readily available pre-1980 with a lot less regulations and laws.

How many mass shootings were there during the 1994-2004 assault rifle ban?

smile

(Note: The Columbine massacre used previously purchased guns prior to 1994).


1994-2004 29

By comparison per decade.
1900'S 0
1910'S 2
1920'S 2
1930' 9
1940'S 8
1950'S 1
1960'S 6
1970'S 13
1980'S 32
1990'S 42
2000'S 28
2010'S over 150 and still counting. You had the Al Capone gangster era of the 30's and 40's. Then mass shootings didn't take off until the 1980's. Then sky rocketed in the 2010's.

The 29 mass shootings during 1994-2004 was average for the four decades from 1970-2010 when mass shootings became double digits which averaged 28.75. No significant difference in the ten year average.


Edited by perotista (09/18/19 12:22 AM)
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#315590 - 09/18/19 04:09 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17424
I tried to copy the relevant slides but failed, so here: 1940 Census to 2010 (Census Bureau). What the charts indicate is interesting and, I think, relevant here. The US population in 1940 was 132 million. Now it is over 330 million and growing. The country we occupy is not any bigger. Population density has skyrocketed, and it has moved west. Visualizing 200 years of U.S. population density. Moreover, guns per capita has also grown exponentially. Yet, violent crime, in particular, murder, has gone down.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/kiifklF.jpg?2[/img] Again, what has changed is a) the nature of the weapon used FBI Homicide table; 2017 murder chart (Statista), and b) the ubiquity of the weapon in the population.
Quote:
In 2012, there were 8,855 total firearm-related homicides in the United States, with 6,371 of those attributed to handguns. In 2012, 64% of all gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides. In 2010, there were 19,392 firearm-related suicides, and 11,078 firearm-related homicides in the U.S.
(Wikipedia, Gun violence)

So, while I agree that social issues are a factor, they are not the leading factor.

Here's my take: When addressing an illness there are two ways of attacking it: address the symptom, and address the underlying cause. Usually, the medical approach is to attack the symptoms emergently, then the underlying cause, which takes longer but is more effective. Here the use of firearms is the symptom - emergent condition - and the social causes, which are harder to determine and treat, will be the follow-on treatment. That's how I think the issue needs to be addressed.

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#315592 - 09/18/19 04:21 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17424
Getting back to the central premise of the thread: I am a very strong advocate for civil rights protections - a member of the ACLU and everything - so I am loathe to criticize or criminalize speech, even specious and ugly speech. There is a point, however, where speech bleeds over into actual criminal and dangerous behavior - inciting a riot, for example. The central question here is whether the speech and actions of the NRA have crossed that line. I am generally of the opinion that they have done terrible, terrible things, socially, but that the speech involved is protected by the First Amendment. Interestingly, I don't know how that affects the SF Board's determination, which is largely symbolic, and therefore, protected as well.

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#315604 - 09/18/19 07:07 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: NW Ponderer]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17263
Loc: Florida
While acts of terrorism are usually illegal(but not always) the acts themselves are nothing but tools to spread a message. The message is delivered how?

Speech.

What the NRA chose to do with their platform wasn't criminal by any means, but did it spread a message of terror?

Apparently some think so. Ethics and legality once again run head to head.
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#315616 - 09/19/19 05:05 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17424
As an aside, isn't it amazing to have a conversation about a gun issue that doesn't devolve into a string of ideological claptrap?

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#315621 - 09/19/19 11:32 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: NW Ponderer]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 824
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
As an aside, isn't it amazing to have a conversation about a gun issue that doesn't devolve into a string of ideological claptrap?



I've found out over the years on other sites that ideologues and the ultra partisans are the ones who resort to claptrap as you put it. Even name calling among being totally unwilling to listen or hear anything from someone who isn't of their political view or any belief on any subject.

So far it's been refreshing here. On the gun issue I found our we are more or less of agreement. We disagree on which should come first and which should be second. That's fine, which reminds me of our two major political parties of 40 or so years ago. Back then ultra partisanship and today's polarization didn't exist, each had their own conservative and liberal wings. Each respected the other, both major agreed that each party's goal was for a better America, more secure and prosperous, only the path to get there was different.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#315622 - 09/19/19 12:22 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10328
Loc: One of the Mexicos
An allegory for the difference between discussions and arguments can be found in this anecdote: a friend was once employed in Montana as a “wilderness ranger”, a job that had him living during the non-winter months in a cabin at Lost Horse Pass on the crest of the Bitterroot mountain range, on the edge of the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness. He’s a colorful character with a wit as sharp as Twain.

He told me that in the opening days of hunting season that practically every hunter who made the journey to the end of the rough dirt road where his cabin lay would stop in for a chat, eventually culminating with the question, “Can you tell me where the elk are around here?” His standard reply was also a question; “Didja come all this way to hunt, or do you just wanna kill something?”

:ohsnap:
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#315623 - 09/19/19 01:21 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: logtroll]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 824
Originally Posted By: logtroll
An allegory for the difference between discussions and arguments can be found in this anecdote: a friend was once employed in Montana as a “wilderness ranger”, a job that had him living during the non-winter months in a cabin at Lost Horse Pass on the crest of the Bitterroot mountain range, on the edge of the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness. He’s a colorful character with a wit as sharp as Twain.

He told me that in the opening days of hunting season that practically every hunter who made the journey to the end of the rough dirt road where his cabin lay would stop in for a chat, eventually culminating with the question, “Can you tell me where the elk are around here?” His standard reply was also a question; “Didja come all this way to hunt, or do you just wanna kill something?”

:ohsnap:


I like it.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#315636 - 09/19/19 07:37 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17424
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
As an aside, isn't it amazing to have a conversation about a gun issue that doesn't devolve into a string of ideological claptrap?



....
So far it's been refreshing here. On the gun issue I found our we are more or less of agreement. We disagree on which should come first and which should be second. That's fine, which reminds me of our two major political parties of 40 or so years ago. Back then ultra partisanship and today's polarization didn't exist, each had their own conservative and liberal wings. Each respected the other, both major agreed that each party's goal was for a better America, more secure and prosperous, only the path to get there was different.
I have sometimes referred to myself as a "recovering conservative", although the transition is far from complete. I am quite opinionated, but, I hope, respectful and polite. I do, however, have a trigger for ultra partisanship or doctrinaire poses, as posters on both sides of the divide can attest. I try, as much as reasonable, to keep an open mind and respond to considered (and researched) positions. I've noted (here? I can't remember) that I've worked for candidates in both, and neither, party, and advocated for a variety of positions across the ideological spectrum. In my earlier years, as you indicated, there was a good deal Of overlap between the parties' wings. Of late, though, that overlap has mostly disappeared and reasoned disagreement has been replaced by a partisan free-for-all. It saddens me.

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