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#315473 - 09/16/19 08:43 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16842
Loc: Florida
Quote:
conservative versus "conservative"


Y'know, NWP, when it comes to Republican voters I don't divide 'em up into good guys and bad guys. They elected Donald Trump. They didn't elect him because they thought he would deliver smaller government or advance whatever passes for a conservative agenda, they just sent him in as a wrecking ball.
**Images of a scantily clad Miley Cyrus in my head**

Not to fix anything. Just to do as much damage as possible to the US Government.
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#315474 - 09/16/19 09:02 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
No, I am not. The fact that you don't recognize that is quite telling.

How high is your horse?
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315476 - 09/16/19 09:23 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10148
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I realized that some of my phraseology in the preceding post is confusing. When I say conservative versus "conservative" what I mean is, those who are really conservative in thought versus those who use the label "conservative." I opine that the majority of actions/activities by modern "conservatives" is not conservative at all.

There are some areas that are claimed by conservatism, generally, but aren't really conservative at all - such as small government, and tax cuts. There is nothing inherently conservative in a small government, except perhaps preservation of capital. But is not conservatism interested in efficient and effective government? The same with tax cuts. If the tax cut furthers a conservative goal, perhaps, but tax cuts are not, per se conservative, and may, indeed, create inefficiencies that undermine conservative principles. For example, reducing the police force, undercutting national security, etc.

I recall asking a simple question recently of how people define "conservatism", and specifically invited the good Senator to describe his version in his own words. It is one of the simple questions that he did not answer.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#315478 - 09/16/19 11:02 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I realized that some of my phraseology in the preceding post is confusing. When I say conservative versus "conservative" what I mean is, those who are really conservative in thought versus those who use the label "conservative." I opine that the majority of actions/activities by modern "conservatives" is not conservative at all.

There are some areas that are claimed by conservatism, generally, but aren't really conservative at all - such as small government, and tax cuts. There is nothing inherently conservative in a small government, except perhaps preservation of capital. But is not conservatism interested in efficient and effective government? The same with tax cuts. If the tax cut furthers a conservative goal, perhaps, but tax cuts are not, per se conservative, and may, indeed, create inefficiencies that undermine conservative principles. For example, reducing the police force, undercutting national security, etc.

I recall asking a simple question recently of how people define "conservatism", and specifically invited the good Senator to describe his version in his own words. It is one of the simple questions that he did not answer.
I did not answer because I was either embroiled in a discussion with Mr. High Horse (NW Ponderer) or didn't see it. While it is a simple question there isn't a simple answer. After the fall of the USSR in Russia a conservative was someone who wanted the Communist government back. Here in the US a person who could be considered a conservative is someone who wants to preserve the New Deal programs. No one is 100% "conservative" and no one is 100% a "liberal." There are things I want to conserve and there somethings I want to change. What I want to conserve someone else wants to change.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315487 - 09/16/19 11:45 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10148
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
I did not answer because I was either embroiled in a discussion with Mr. High Horse (NW Ponderer) or didn't see it. While it is a simple question there isn't a simple answer. After the fall of the USSR in Russia a conservative was someone who wanted the Communist government back. Here in the US a person who could be considered a conservative is someone who wants to preserve the New Deal programs. No one is 100% "conservative" and no one is 100% a "liberal." There are things I want to conserve and there somethings I want to change. What I want to conserve someone else wants to change.

Perotista gave a clear and understandable description that pretty well matches what I thought Conservatives are supposed to be.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#315494 - 09/17/19 03:36 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17387
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
conservative versus "conservative"


Y'know, NWP, when it comes to Republican voters I don't divide 'em up into good guys and bad guys. They elected Donald Trump. They didn't elect him because they thought he would deliver smaller government or advance whatever passes for a conservative agenda, they just sent him in as a wrecking ball.
**Images of a scantily clad Miley Cyrus in my head**

Not to fix anything. Just to do as much damage as possible to the US Government.
I cannot dispute any of that characterization, but I can agree wholeheartedly.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#315495 - 09/17/19 03:53 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17387
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
No, I am not. The fact that you don't recognize that is quite telling.

How high is your horse?
Well fed and watered, and out to pasture, thank you. Sadly, I haven't ridden in some time. I think you mistook me for your image in the mirror.

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#315505 - 09/17/19 02:02 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
No, I am not. The fact that you don't recognize that is quite telling.

How high is your horse?
Well fed and watered, and out to pasture, thank you. Sadly, I haven't ridden in some time. I think you mistook me for your image in the mirror.
Bullshit! Every time you make a comment here you are riding your high horse.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315507 - 09/17/19 02:32 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10148
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Bullshit! Every time you make a comment here you are riding your high horse.

Bullshit is overused, imho - horseshit would better and more applicable artful in this case, if true.


Edited by logtroll (09/17/19 02:33 PM)
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#315509 - 09/17/19 02:47 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42746
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


The Republican Party, Fox News and other elite rightwing groups see Trumpism (modern Conservatism) as their best chance to destroy America’s multicultural democracy, profit from environment disaster, gut the social safety net, destroy the commons, slash taxes on the wealthy and large corporations, or (in extreme cases) install a Christian nationalist regime.

This thread validates these points pretty well. smile
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