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#314663 - 09/02/19 12:15 AM Re: What do words mean? [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I thought it was a good word, and was consonant with the historical antecedents of progressivism from the late 19th and early 20th Century.

Agreed... as a reaction to the TEAParty emergence, a local, grassroots Progressive party formed in my small town. The draw was the new name, intended to differentiate from Liberal or plain old Democrat. We thought of it as a fresh slate that considerate and conscientious people could use to escape the weaponized labels that were dragging down "the Left". We actually had many productive interactions with the local TEAParty folks, many of who were doing some original thinking for themselves.

Didn't take long for the Kochs and their ilk to dominate the TEAPartiers, though, and to weaponize the word "Progressive". A national takeover of the Progressive label was in play, too, which was decidedly different from the decentralized, thinking for ourselves version.

The best I have been able to do since is to refer to the Trumpites as Regressives - when they object, I ask them, "Are you Progressives, then?" They are so trained to despise "Progressive" that they will shout, HELL, NO!!! We are the complete opposite of Progressives in every way!!!!" So I say, "Isn't that the definition of Regressive?"

I very much like that my favorite Republican was Teddy Roosevelt, a vociferous Progressive.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#314664 - 09/02/19 12:34 AM Re: What do words mean? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Chunkstyle has me convinced that I'm not far enough left to consider myself progressive.
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Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#314667 - 09/02/19 12:51 AM Re: What do words mean? [Re: logtroll]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42977
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

There's a reason why the word obsequious is no longer used much. The English language is alive and changing and progressing - it's not static like someone trying to conserve old timey days gone by ideals. smile
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#314670 - 09/02/19 12:54 AM Re: What do words mean? [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10000
Loc: North San Diego County
There is a strange faulty reasoning going on here: When people claim that Socialism has failed everywhere it's been tried, others point out that Norway has just about the highest standard of living anywhere. Then the original claimants insist that Norway is not socialist. (It's the No True Scotsman argument.)

Then I point out that Bernie and AOC just want the US to be more like Norway, and they scream: SOCIALISTS

Right in the same forum thread, by the same person!

How can you have a logical discussion with that? That's not moving the goal posts, that's like putting them in a different stadium.

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#314673 - 09/02/19 01:08 AM Re: What do words mean? [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42977
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
There is a strange faulty reasoning going on here: When people claim that Socialism has failed everywhere it's been tried, others point out that Norway has just about the highest standard of living anywhere. Then the original claimants insist that Norway is not socialist. (It's the No True Scotsman argument.)

Then I point out that Bernie and AOC just want the US to be more like Norway, and they scream: SOCIALISTS

Right in the same forum thread, by the same person!

How can you have a logical discussion with that? That's not moving the goal posts, that's like putting them in a different stadium.

Bow

Norway and the United States have nearly identical GDP per capita.Yet Norway, unlike the United States, enjoys universal health care, child care, and elder care, as well as tuition-free universities, around 12 months of paid parental leave, and a robust social safety net.

Norway’s success is inconvenient for critics of progressive, big-government economic and social policies; Conservatives prefer that the public associate socialism with basket cases such as North Korea and Venezuela and refuse to acknowledge that countries like Norway enjoy a form of socialism. Hmm

Why can't we have nice things like Norway has too? gobsmacked
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#314707 - 09/02/19 06:02 PM Re: What do words mean? [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17399
It's our Puritan(ical) roots. "Nice things" are a sign of decadence and bad morals.

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#314710 - 09/02/19 06:40 PM Re: What do words mean? [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
"Lecture" appears to be another word whose meaning is corrupted. A proper lecture is something one attends in order to learn something.

Sometimes people don't learn anything from lectures - I suppose that's either because they are not well enough educated to understand the lecture, or because of some bias that doesn't allow them to learn.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#314715 - 09/02/19 07:51 PM Re: What do words mean? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
"Condescending" is another word that doesn't quite mean what folks want to think. As it happens, it doesn't generically apply to a smarter person talking down to a less smarter one. There has to be an element of intent to insult involved.

It came up on a righty blog I was once posting on - but I wasn't usually intending to insult anyone, I was simply asking probing questions and stating facts that my fellow bloggers didn't like (because it undermined their temious bee-ess). For a while, the standard rebuttal to my comments was that they were condescending. So I started paying closer attention, including looking up the word's definition and posting it for everyone to learn from (I was called condescending for that, too). As it happened, many of the unfriendlies were actually attempting to be condescending to me! But for some reason, the desired result of offending me was fleeing without effect.

Because I found that to be immensely interesting, I shared it with the others, pointing out that in order for someone to be condescending to another person, the object of condescension had a functional duty to be complicit in accepting the bestowal.

I then revealed that I had never felt any of them had been condescending to me. It did not make me more popular among them, which was a testament to their incomplete stupidity...
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

Top
#314863 - 09/05/19 07:26 AM Re: What do words mean? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
I have learned recently that:
Republicans are not necessarily Capitalists;
Conservatives may not be Republicans;
Capitalists might not be Conservatives.
Government can’t create wealth;
Socialism never helps anybody;
Capitalism always helps everybody;
Externalization of costs doesn’t exist;
The electoral college has made America great.

Frankly, I’m having a bit of trouble fitting the pieces together into any recognizable or usable form. Mah brane may be too puny for me to ever be a functioning Classical Liberal.

_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#314928 - 09/05/19 10:52 PM Re: What do words mean? [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10000
Loc: North San Diego County
And we've ALWAYS been at war with Eastasia.

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