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#315433 - 09/16/19 01:16 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: perotista
Okay, but two questions. Do you believe guns are at fault for all these mass shootings?

Without guns that can unload 30-plus rounds in less than one minute - there wouldn't be "mass" shootings - only shootings. Hmm


Originally Posted By: perotista
[H]as something gone wrong in our society that is a deep hidden reason that causes these mass shootings?

Like processed foods or corn syrup added to the American diet? smile
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#315450 - 09/16/19 11:16 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: logtroll]
perotista Online   content
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 660
Originally Posted By: logtroll
I have said that the real problem is cultural for many years, now. Exactly what the cultural problem is, I don't know. It might have something to do with the lack of basic effort required to live (growing food, connection to the environment), maybe some connection to the increasingly impersonal way we live (internet, everything store bought, reducing interpersonal interactions) - cars and road rage I think are an example of being isolated and protected against "the real world" in powerful machines and feeling that others in cars are imposing on us. Maybe the widespread existence of the virtual world, where lots of violence and killing takes place with no consequences. Maybe too many people and too little sense of accomplishment or productivity.

There might be an element of stricter gun control that stimulates a greater sense of responsibility and social stigma about the improper use of guns.

Maybe, maybe, maybe...


Makes sense to me. We just don't know and won't until we are willing to do some real searching for the cause, the reason. I do think many of us can make educated guesses and hit on some that may be the causes. That most of us don't want to know what the real cause is. That we wouldn't like the real cause or reasons that come forth.

You have hit on some causes that in my book fit the situation. Perhaps the lack of two parent families, kids being raised by day care and after school programs, TV and video games instead of a stay at home mom could have something to do with it also. We just don't know, but can make guesses. Another may be the blurring of right and wrong from white and black into gray. Who knows, but there has to be a reason, a cause or many reasons and causes.
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#315459 - 09/16/19 03:56 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: perotista
...Perhaps the lack of two parent families, kids being raised by day care and after school programs, TV and video games instead of a stay at home mom could have something to do with it also.

You forget the /s for snark after that paragraph. smile


Originally Posted By: perotista
We just don't know, but can make guesses. Another may be the blurring of right and wrong from white and black into gray. Who knows, but there has to be a reason, a cause or many reasons and causes.

Most likely its going to be a brain development issue such as when science found that conservatives have a larger than normal amygdala and are prone to over-react to fear. Hmm

To suggest love, empathy, nurturing and caring are the root causes of these "changes" in society, as you did above this one, is ridiculous.

crazy
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#315460 - 09/16/19 04:40 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
perotista Online   content
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 660
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: perotista
...Perhaps the lack of two parent families, kids being raised by day care and after school programs, TV and video games instead of a stay at home mom could have something to do with it also.

You forget the /s for snark after that paragraph. smile


Originally Posted By: perotista
We just don't know, but can make guesses. Another may be the blurring of right and wrong from white and black into gray. Who knows, but there has to be a reason, a cause or many reasons and causes.

Most likely its going to be a brain development issue such as when science found that conservatives have a larger than normal amygdala and are prone to over-react to fear. Hmm

To suggest love, empathy, nurturing and caring are the root causes of these "changes" in society, as you did above this one, is ridiculous.

crazy


The lack of love, empathy, nurturing and caring. Perhaps not the lack of love so much, but the lack of a guiding hand. Someone to help with the homework and encourage study when dealing with the brain. Someone to discipline and teach right and wrong. Tough love so to speak.

Maybe this is why most folks don't want to know the cause or the reasons for all these mass killings. It might reflect bad on them and bad on society as a whole. So we go after a tool leaving the causes and reasons in place. That to me is like treating a patient with a headache caused by a brain tumor by giving him aspirin. Sure the headache goes away, but the cause remains and more and more headaches are sure to come.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#315462 - 09/16/19 04:58 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17399
Originally Posted By: Greger
Near as I can tell, Senator, the ordinance only impacts immigration law. Burglary, murder, rape and theft, traffic violations or anything else remain in effect. It's a freedom thing. The states and the cities are free to make their own laws rather than kowtow to the feds...

Liberty.
Wouldn't that be a "conservative" principle?
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#315463 - 09/16/19 05:03 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17399
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The problem is not the one case you mentioned. The problem is the idea of creating a sanctuary for criminals which is what San Francisco has done.
I think, my friend, that you are addressing an issue that a) is not germane to the thread, and b) is contrary to the actual ordinance. That is commonly referred to as a "strawman". The ordinance does not, in fact, protect criminals as you assert. It simply does not allow the apparatus of the city (paid for by its citizens) to be shanghaied into use by the federal government (without compensation). Can you show me otherwise?

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#315465 - 09/16/19 05:09 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17399
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The ordinances of San Francisco do create a sanctuary for criminals. Here is the city ordinance that does.

Please cite the specific page and language. Thank you in advance. smile

The link takes you to specific page where you can read it for yourself.
SH, Having read it myself, it does not say what you allege it says, or do what you allege it does. It expressly applies only to actions "conducted by the Federal agency charged with enforcement of the Federal immigration law and relating to alleged violations of the civil provisions of the Federal immigration law" and further "except for cooperation related to an alleged violation of City and County, State, or Federal criminal laws". Game, set, match.

Oh dang, I just realized I got caught in the dishonest game of distract and deflect. This is a thread about the NRA. My bad.

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#315466 - 09/16/19 05:28 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16971
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Makes sense to me. We just don't know and won't until we are willing to do some real searching for the cause, the reason. I do think many of us can make educated guesses and hit on some that may be the causes. That most of us don't want to know what the real cause is. That we wouldn't like the real cause or reasons that come forth.


"We" being whom? I mentioned above that I believe economic stress is at the heart of it all. Stay at home moms went the way of cheap doctor bills and living wages. Kids raised themselves.

I'll admit that I'm baffled at the mess that our society has become, but I can still relate everything that has gone wrong to family economics. If I was going to point a finger at any one thing that caused all this it would be easy credit. Instead of keeping the minimum wage current with inflation The government let the banks extend a everyone a line of credit...Credit Cards.

The result is a society buried in debt and economic stress. Nobody has any idea how to live within their means anymore and it extends into every facet of their lives. That most recent shooter got fired from his job and it tipped the scales. A directly economic cause of the shooting.

If all he had was a deer rifle maybe he'd have gone hunting deer instead of people. Back during the prohibition they outlawed machine guns. Because police were being outgunned. If these shooters were targeting policemen with these weapons you'd find them banned in a heartbeat. But it's just regular folks and schoolkids watering the tree of liberty with their blood. A price we pay for our freedom.
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#315467 - 09/16/19 06:01 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17399
With respect, my friend, I am going to edit down to the salient points for my response. Feel free to address my elidations.
Originally Posted By: perotista
I don't think the NRA has a thing to do with mass shootings or gun violence. I think our society as a whole has taken a wrong turn. That we have a deep root problem within our society that is causing all these killings. One we don't want to find, know about, search for or acknowledge.
On this explanation, I mostly agree. Except: I do think that the NRA has something to do with the mass shootings you so eloquently and thoroughly expound upon. For decades the NRA has opposed gun regulation of any kind. (That wasn't the case before the takeover of the NRA by Wayne LaPierre and his cabal.) They have used language that is both untrue and inflammatory to do so. They have also extolled the virtues of (and excused the use of) assault weapons and the attitude that guns have an outsized importance to our liberties (Bullshit!) They have made the possession and use of assault weapons a virtue rather than something to be looked at askance. In that they have been at the very least complicit in the social change you are addressing.

Originally Posted By: perotista
To me all of this means the problem isn't guns, they're a tool.
I reach a different conclusion. I generally agree that guns are a tool. The problem is that we have allowed the spread of a tool that is inappropriate in our society. I think we can all agree that proper tools, with the proper training, can be very useful in appropriate circumstances. Dynamite, for example, has laudatory applications in mining, in surveying, in demolition. That does not mean that dynamite should be allowed to be used anywhere and anywhen anyone somehow desires. Assault weapons, similarly, are very effective on the battlefield, where they are designed to belong. (I trained on and carried one for many years.) One of those purposes is "suppressive fire" - to keep the enemy's head down to allow maneuver. Not something that is reasonably necessary for civilian use. That same feature allows the weapon to be used to inflict mass casualties in open and crowded areas, and as a weapon of terrorism. Similarly, what purpose do large-capacity magazines have in either pistols or rifles in a civilian setting? Revolvers have seldom been used in mass killings. Why?

This issue is similar to ethical questions about cloning. Just because we can have weapons with these capacities avoids the question of whether we should.

Originally Posted By: perotista
[The problem] lies somewhere in our society where we went wrong someplace. I'll make a prediction that even if we ban all guns and do away with the NRA, the killings will continue. They will continue by other means, perhaps not as deadly, perhaps more deadly. Bombs, knives, machetes, arson, fire, chemicals, other means will replace guns. The motive, the reason, the deep root cause of these killings will still be there, the reasons and causes will still exist. No one cares about those. At least it seems that way to me.
These are salient points. There is a problem in our society and those root causes need to be addressed. (One of them, I believe, is the prevalence of firearms in the civilian world, and the terror that this condition incites.) But, here's a fly in your suppositions: The prevalence of public attacks in other places is not substantially lower than in the United States. The reality is, they are just less effective. Knives are unwieldy and easier to counteract; bombs require sophistication and are easier to detect; arson still occurs, but is less likely to result in substantial deaths; chemicals are harder to procure. What makes the American experience unique is the easy access to firearms - weapons of mass destruction. When you eliminate all of the other variables, this is the one that stands out.

Having now caught up, how about we conduct an experiment: Let's eliminate guns with capacity to fire more than say, 6 rounds, in the public sphere and see what happens? I would be willing to bet my pension that that change alone would reduce mass murder by more than 50%. (It would certainly reduce mass shootings.) Maybe then we can address some of the systemic issues you are raising.


Edited by NW Ponderer (09/16/19 06:14 PM)

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#315468 - 09/16/19 06:07 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17399
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: Greger
Agreed down the line.



And also address the reason our society is falling apart at the seams.

Income inequality.




I don't know the reason, but we definitely need to dig deep into our society to find out the reason why we have had a 150 plus mass shootings in less than nine years. That comes close to doubling all the mass shooting in this country from 1900-2010.

Perhaps more of the right type of gun control is needed. But it won't help if we refuse to try to find the problem that causes this. I don't think it's income inequality. That's been with us forever. We've had worst income inequality prior to the 1960's and pre-FDR with no safety nets whatsoever. Yet, relative few mass shootings.

I don't know the reason behind them. But I do think it is high past time we try to find out.
A query: What weapons were readily available prior to 1960 to carry out mass shootings with?

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