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#315633 - 09/19/19 06:49 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17115
In the view of the great and mighty OZ (and anyone with eyes), friend Hatrack, you have presented not an iota of evidence refuting a single element of my post, despite a dozen opportunities to do so. The sum total of your response is: it's partisan! You've not addressed the 10 instances of obstruction, two of campaign finance violations, numerous emoluments issues, various corruption questions, failure to appoint cabinet and sub-cabinet officers, or false statements under oath. For someone who started a thread about corruption you seem remarkably, even pathologically, adverse to actually discussing it.

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#315634 - 09/19/19 06:56 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17115
Returning to the central question of the thread: what can be done about corruption is: expose it, shame it, prosecute it when possible, and reject it in honor, and furtherance, of our venerated Constitution.

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#315635 - 09/19/19 07:36 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1604
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
In the view of the great and mighty OZ (and anyone with eyes), friend Hatrack, you have presented not an iota of evidence refuting a single element of my post, despite a dozen opportunities to do so. The sum total of your response is: it's partisan! You've not addressed the 10 instances of obstruction, two of campaign finance violations, numerous emoluments issues, various corruption questions, failure to appoint cabinet and sub-cabinet officers, or false statements under oath. For someone who started a thread about corruption you seem remarkably, even pathologically, adverse to actually discussing it.
The reason I haven't "addressed" those allegations is because there isn't a damn thing I can do about them! If the allegations are true, which remains to be seen, it is up to the House of Representatives to attempt to impeach Pres. Trump. As a lawyer you should know that it is up those who are making the allegations of criminal behavior to prove them beyond a reasonable doubt. You, as the prosecution have not done that. The defense doesn't need to prove anything. Even The Mueller Report says that isn't enough evidence to bring charges or impeachment proceedings against Trump. You can yell and demand that Trump be impeached all you want. But nothing is going to happen until the House of Representatives decides to do something about it! Since you talked anyone having eyes I've re-posted why impeachment proceedings will not be brought against Trump.

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The reason I am opposed to this partisan drive to impeach Trump is that some Democrats are being as stupid as some Republicans were. The Republican attempt to impeach Pres. Clinton was stupid! The desire of some Republicans to impeach Pres. Obama was stupid! Now some Democrats are imitating some Republicans by making the stupid, and partisan, demand for Pres. Trump to be impeached. For once I agree with Rep. Pelosi, she doesn't think there are grounds for bringing impeachment proceedings against Trump. Only once in our country's history has the attempt to impeach our President been done for legitimate reasons. That was when an attempt was made to impeach Pres. Nixon.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#315638 - 09/19/19 07:59 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17115
I'm curious, if there is "nothing you can do about them", what is the premise of this thread? I've opined that "naming and shaming" is something we can do, is that acceptable? Is investigating appropriate? If there are "credible allegations" is it not incumbent upon the proper authorities to investigate? Can we at least acknowledge that "credible information" exists on a number of issues that bear further investigation?

Is it appropriate for government employees to deliberately thwart the investigative process? Should they be punished? These are questions I believe directly germane to the topic. What is your opinion on these suggestions?

[As an aside, the "burden of proof" issue is quite complicated, and does not, in fact, ever need to be "beyond a reasonable doubt" in most circumstances, including impeachment. It only applies, specifically, to criminal proceedings, and even then only to the final verdict. It also moves back and forth between the parties during the course of most proceedings. ]

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#315639 - 09/19/19 08:04 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1604
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Returning to the central question of the thread: what can be done about corruption is: expose it, shame it, prosecute it when possible, and reject it in honor, and furtherance, of our venerated Constitution.

The biggest source of corruption in our government is not the man who resides at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave for four or eight years. It is the 535 people who work at 1 1st Street NE.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#315640 - 09/19/19 08:21 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1604
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I'm curious, if there is "nothing you can do about them", what is the premise of this thread? I've opined that "naming and shaming" is something we can do, is that acceptable? Is investigating appropriate? If there are "credible allegations" is it not incumbent upon the proper authorities to investigate? Can we at least acknowledge that "credible information" exists on a number of issues that bear further investigation?

Is it appropriate for government employees to deliberately thwart the investigative process? Should they be punished? These are questions I believe directly germane to the topic. What is your opinion on these suggestions?

[As an aside, the "burden of proof" issue is quite complicated, and does not, in fact, ever need to be "beyond a reasonable doubt" in most circumstances, including impeachment. It only applies, specifically, to criminal proceedings, and even then only to the final verdict. It also moves back and forth between the parties during the course of most proceedings. ]
Since the over two year investigation into alleged criminal behavior by Trump, The Mueller Report found nothing that warrants bringing charges against or impeachment proceedings against him, there is nothing about it that can be done me. As I have said several times it is up to the House of Representatives wants to do something about it. And as I explained in my comment, that I had to post a second time, there has only been one time in our country's history that impeachment proceedings against a President have been justified.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#315648 - 09/19/19 11:00 PM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17115
Is this the one? Or the second one?

I cannot believe you have read the Mueller report, given your statement "The Mueller Report found nothing that warrants bringing charges against or impeachment proceedings against him," It is simply not possible to reconcile that with the Mueller report.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#315656 - 09/20/19 04:15 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1604
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Is this the one? Or the second one?

I cannot believe you have read the Mueller report, given your statement "The Mueller Report found nothing that warrants bringing charges against or impeachment proceedings against him," It is simply not possible to reconcile that with the Mueller report.

You have your partisan bias NW and I have mine. Your liberal bias is why you think The Mueller Report does warrant bringing charges or impeachment proceedings against Pres. Trump. Because I don't agree with what you believe about The Mueller Report you doubt that I have read it. My conservative bias thinks it does not. My belief is backed up Alan Dershowitz.
Quote:
As to the actual Mueller report, Dershowitz said that the special counsel got the law "completely wrong on obstruction of justice."

"[I]n my introduction, I show how Mueller got the law completely wrong on obstruction of justice," Dershowitz said. "And I lay out what the law on obstruction is. And you cannot be charged with obstruction if you’re the president and you simply exercise your constitutional authority to fire Comey or anyone else. I lay that out carefully."
While you might be an excellent attorney I will believe Alan Dershowitz instead of you.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#315657 - 09/20/19 04:22 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17115
Of course you would. He's a Fox commentator, a Trump acolyte, and used to be a rational person. I do thank you, though, for acknowledging you haven't read it. I have. Dershowitz has no credibility anymore. His argument is nonsensical.

What I don't understand, my friend, is why you so adamantly refuse to investigate for yourself and are content with simply following talking head instructions.

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#315659 - 09/20/19 04:43 AM Re: What Can Be Done About The Bipartisan Corruption In Our Government? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1604
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Of course you would. He's a Fox commentator, a Trump acolyte, and used to be a rational person. I do thank you, though, for acknowledging you haven't read it. I have. Dershowitz has no credibility anymore. His argument is nonsensical.

Alan Dershowitz This is what happens when someone disagrees with the great and mighty OZ, they cease to be a rational person. Appear on FOX News and support Pres. Trump one time, according to the great and mighty OZ, you don't have any credibility and your arguments are nonsensical. Then because I disagree with the great and mighty OZ he knows that you have not read The Mueller Report. In fact the great and mighty OZ makes a statement he cannot prove, that I haven't read The Mueller Report. The only basis for that completely erroneous claim is that I dared to disagree with the great and mighty OZ.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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