Current Topics
Why do humans fight so much?
by Greger
4 minutes 5 seconds ago
Where have all the conservatives gone?
by perotista
43 minutes 39 seconds ago
The Impeachment of Donald trump
by Senator Hatrack
48 minutes 25 seconds ago
RoundTable for Fall 2019
by pdx rick
59 minutes 15 seconds ago
Global warming predictions
by logtroll
Yesterday at 08:47 PM
Turkey's Erdogan threatens to release millions of refugees into Europe over crit
by pdx rick
10/12/19 07:35 PM
The Trump/Biden/Ukraine thing
by pdx rick
10/12/19 06:38 PM
The Departed - 2019
by Jeffery J. Haas
10/12/19 04:51 AM
Partisans' Trust in Legislative Branch Has Shifted in Past Year
by perotista
10/11/19 03:37 AM
Are both "sides" equally corrupt?
by chunkstyle
10/10/19 07:21 PM
Trump unleashes ISIS in Kurd Country
by Greger
10/10/19 05:31 PM
What is "old"?
by Ujest Shurly
10/10/19 01:42 PM
Hyper-partisanship and irrationality
by NW Ponderer
10/10/19 04:10 AM
SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization
by NW Ponderer
10/09/19 03:08 PM
Is it too soon to be talking 2020?
by chunkstyle
10/07/19 02:44 PM
NRA acted as "foreign asset" for Russia ahead of 2016 election, Senate report cl
by Greger
10/07/19 02:19 AM
Roe v. Wade Is Under Immediate Threat
by jgw
10/06/19 08:05 PM
Quinnipiac Loves Liz Warren
by perotista
10/03/19 02:46 PM
Fixing Social Security
by jgw
10/02/19 07:58 PM
Here we go again!
by jgw
10/02/19 07:48 PM
Forum Stats
6282 Members
59 Forums
16710 Topics
290672 Posts

Max Online: 294 @ 12/06/17 12:57 AM
Google Adsense
Page 8 of 10 < 1 2 ... 6 7 8 9 10 >
Topic Options
#315637 - 09/19/19 07:49 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: NW Ponderer]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 112
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
As an aside, isn't it amazing to have a conversation about a gun issue that doesn't devolve into a string of ideological claptrap?



....
So far it's been refreshing here. On the gun issue I found our we are more or less of agreement. We disagree on which should come first and which should be second. That's fine, which reminds me of our two major political parties of 40 or so years ago. Back then ultra partisanship and today's polarization didn't exist, each had their own conservative and liberal wings. Each respected the other, both major agreed that each party's goal was for a better America, more secure and prosperous, only the path to get there was different.
I have sometimes referred to myself as a "recovering conservative", although the transition is far from complete. I am quite opinionated, but, I hope, respectful and polite. I do, however, have a trigger for ultra partisanship or doctrinaire poses, as posters on both sides of the divide can attest. I try, as much as reasonable, to keep an open mind and respond to considered (and researched) positions. I've noted (here? I can't remember) that I've worked for candidates in both, and neither, party, and advocated for a variety of positions across the ideological spectrum. In my earlier years, as you indicated, there was a good deal Of overlap between the parties' wings. Of late, though, that overlap has mostly disappeared and reasoned disagreement has been replaced by a partisan free-for-all. It saddens me.


Me also. The worst part of all of this modern day ultra high partisanship and polarization is if one party proposes something, the other party is automatically against. No thoughts whatsoever over the merits of the proposal or whether it might be good, bad or indifferent for the country as a whole.

I think if you go back to pre-2000 you'll find very few party line votes. They happened, but were vary rare. Today it seems almost every vote is party line or close to it. That I think has a lot to do with the leadership of both parties in the House and Senate. Especially the senate. Daschle and Lott for the most part could work things out, come to a compromise. So too Dole and Mitchell, Byrd and Baker. None of them would have ever thought of using the nuclear option.

But then again, there wasn't the ultra high partisanship and polarization we see today.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315644 - 09/19/19 09:18 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14298
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: perotista
Today it seems almost every vote is party line or close to it. That I think has a lot to do with the leadership of both parties in the House and Senate. Especially the senate. Daschle and Lott for the most part could work things out, come to a compromise. So too Dole and Mitchell, Byrd and Baker. None of them would have ever thought of using the nuclear option.

But then again, there wasn't the ultra high partisanship and polarization we see today.


Well, you do know ME well enough to know I am not any kind of marxist or ultra-left social justice warrior, and you know I am not Antifa friendly either.

In fact, you probably know me pretty well. I am open to compromise on a lot of stuff. You've probably heard me talk about the fact that it's not Trump's party choice that freaks me out, it's the man himself.

Sure sure, I'd bitch and whine if a Republican was elected POTUS but for the most part I've always felt that it is survivable.
Maybe it's not my cup of tea but I know we will eventually get a turn at bat if we can sell our ideas successfully.

But I've never seen a POTUS or an administration or the lion's share of a party dedicate itself to completely tearing down the state and weakening democracy on this scale.
And that wasn't always the Republican coin of the realm.
But it appears to be now, at least as long as Trump is in power anyway.

I don't want the state torn down and I don't want democracy weakened, and I don't want an authoritarian strongman running the country.

That's all. Democracy dies in darkness.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

Top
#315646 - 09/19/19 09:45 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 112
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: perotista
Today it seems almost every vote is party line or close to it. That I think has a lot to do with the leadership of both parties in the House and Senate. Especially the senate. Daschle and Lott for the most part could work things out, come to a compromise. So too Dole and Mitchell, Byrd and Baker. None of them would have ever thought of using the nuclear option.

But then again, there wasn't the ultra high partisanship and polarization we see today.


Well, you do know ME well enough to know I am not any kind of marxist or ultra-left social justice warrior, and you know I am not Antifa friendly either.

In fact, you probably know me pretty well. I am open to compromise on a lot of stuff. You've probably heard me talk about the fact that it's not Trump's party choice that freaks me out, it's the man himself.

Sure sure, I'd bitch and whine if a Republican was elected POTUS but for the most part I've always felt that it is survivable.
Maybe it's not my cup of tea but I know we will eventually get a turn at bat if we can sell our ideas successfully.

But I've never seen a POTUS or an administration or the lion's share of a party dedicate itself to completely tearing down the state and weakening democracy on this scale.
And that wasn't always the Republican coin of the realm.
But it appears to be now, at least as long as Trump is in power anyway.

I don't want the state torn down and I don't want democracy weakened, and I don't want an authoritarian strongman running the country.

That's all. Democracy dies in darkness.


Like you, some of the candidates for president I liked, wanted won, others lost. But I've always been comfortable with whomever won. That is until Trump came along. I'm not a bit comfortable with him as president. I was born right after WWII, so that includes quite a lot of presidents.

I also wouldn't have been comfortable with Hillary Clinton either, so I voted against both by casting a ballot for a third party candidate. I wanted my vote officially registered against both. 2016 was a good news, bad news election for me. The good news, Hillary lost, the bad news, Trump won. That sums up 2016 for me.

I'm not an ideologue or that partisan. Certainly not a party animal. I want Trump replaced, but replaced with someone I would be comfortable being president. There are a couple of Democrats running for the nomination I wouldn't be. If either one wins the nomination, that means another third party vote. I have no qualms voting third party when I dislike both major party candidates. I've done that 5 times since 1968, my first presidential election when one had to be 21 to vote.

As for Trump, I have supported some of his policies, been against some with a bunch being irrelevant to me. Pretty much like any other president in my lifetime. But I really dislike the man, the person, the individual. I could agree with him on 100% of the issues and I still wouldn't vote for him.

The problem is that we have created the imperial presidency. Congress has ceded many of its constitutional powers to the administration or other government agencies, departments. Those members of congress of the president's party are more part of the administration than of the institution of congress.


When was the last time a Speaker of the House stood up to a president of his own party and told him no, I'm not giving you that power. In my lifetime, Sam Rayburn, Mike McCormick, Carl Albert comes to mind. That's all. Since then, every Speaker of the president's party has tried to give the president everything he wanted and more. Becoming part of the administration than of congress.

That's my rant.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315650 - 09/19/19 11:51 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14298
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: perotista


The problem is that we have created the imperial presidency. Congress has ceded many of its constitutional powers to the administration or other government agencies, departments. Those members of congress of the president's party are more part of the administration than of the institution of congress.


When was the last time a Speaker of the House stood up to a president of his own party and told him no, I'm not giving you that power. In my lifetime, Sam Rayburn, Mike McCormick, Carl Albert comes to mind. That's all. Since then, every Speaker of the president's party has tried to give the president everything he wanted and more. Becoming part of the administration than of congress.

That's my rant.


I just want the two major parties to respect each other more, and grant some dignity and some trust. We are apparently fond of believing that we are two different species at this point.
How about let's just say that anyone who doesn't live here couldn't be blamed for coming to that conclusion.
But I assure you, we are not. I know you know that, too.

Mr. Trump loves seeing us at war with each other, Mitch does, too.
Most of the party faithful are in on it, too...they're on board.

I know quite a few Dems who are on board with their own version, too.
But it is truly alarming to see how Dems, libs et al go to war with each other, too.
That's something you don't see much of on the other side. People just LEAVE the party or they are asked to leave.
And GOP lawmakers who do it are often primaried and/or voted out.

I want to see this go back to being more like a friendly sports rivalry. We don't have to agree on everything but it is not a sin to sit down and find common ground and it is not a sin to give a little.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

Top
#315652 - 09/20/19 12:45 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 112
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: perotista


The problem is that we have created the imperial presidency. Congress has ceded many of its constitutional powers to the administration or other government agencies, departments. Those members of congress of the president's party are more part of the administration than of the institution of congress.


When was the last time a Speaker of the House stood up to a president of his own party and told him no, I'm not giving you that power. In my lifetime, Sam Rayburn, Mike McCormick, Carl Albert comes to mind. That's all. Since then, every Speaker of the president's party has tried to give the president everything he wanted and more. Becoming part of the administration than of congress.

That's my rant.


I just want the two major parties to respect each other more, and grant some dignity and some trust. We are apparently fond of believing that we are two different species at this point.
How about let's just say that anyone who doesn't live here couldn't be blamed for coming to that conclusion.
But I assure you, we are not. I know you know that, too.

Mr. Trump loves seeing us at war with each other, Mitch does, too.
Most of the party faithful are in on it, too...they're on board.

I know quite a few Dems who are on board with their own version, too.
But it is truly alarming to see how Dems, libs et al go to war with each other, too.
That's something you don't see much of on the other side. People just LEAVE the party or they are asked to leave.
And GOP lawmakers who do it are often primaried and/or voted out.

I want to see this go back to being more like a friendly sports rivalry. We don't have to agree on everything but it is not a sin to sit down and find common ground and it is not a sin to give a little.






There was a time. A time when parties still had their differences, but respected each other, they weren't out to destroy each other. There was a time when each party acknowledged both parties wanted what was best for America, for a secure and prosperous America. Each recognized this and realized each party had a different path, but the same goal.

Today Republicans think the Democrats are out to destroy this country and vice versa. The Democrats think the Republicans want to destroy it.

The Republican Party has always been sort of a country club party. Since Eisenhower numbering between 25-30% up to today. Business oriented. The Democratic Party was once the big tent party. Represented the working man, the middle class, not the liberal elite of the northeast. They were Rockefeller Republicans. Democrats were tough on defense, pro-military, at least until Vietnam. Then it became the peace dove party. The big tent party began to shrink, losing its Southern and Midwestern conservatives. The old Rockefeller Republicans became liberal northeastern Democrats. The south became Republican. The West Coast switched to the Democrats. Lots of changes, way too many to go into. Pew Research shows the strength of the two major parties.

https://www.people-press.org/interactives/party-id-trend/

Pew ends in 2014. But the big tent Democratic Party no longer exists. First they got rid of their conservatives and now it's the moderates, the blue dogs who are being asked to leave or forced out due to not being progressive enough for the liberal elites. The GOP continues on as always, being more or less an exclusive country club between 25-30%. Granted, the GOP didn't start high and thus really had not much to lose. I think the Democratic Party has forgotten all about the working man, the middle class. Today or as of 14 Aug 2019 Gallup puts party affiliation at 29% Democratic, 27% Republican and 40% independent. Compare that to the Democratic Party from FDR until Reagan when it averaged 45% of the electorate or from Reagan to Obama when it averaged 35%.

A friendly sports rivalry is impossible today. What we have left in both parties are hard core ideologues, hard core conservatives and progressives. Those who could work across the aisle to get things done are gone from both parties. Now it is the Trumper's vs. the anti Trumper's. The hard left vs. the hard right. In a way, I think this is what both major parties want. To be rid of those who don't believe or hold the same views. Each having a litmus test of its own.

Just something to think about from one who has no use for either major party. Seems to me the Democrats have forgotten about the working man and are now more concerned with what bathroom a transgender can use. After a 10 year battle to keep Obamacare, when it finally is becoming popular, the Democrats want to destroy it with medicare for all. That makes no sense to me. Then again, I'm not a democrat. We went through a great upheaval with Obamacare, are we ready to go through another just 10 years later in medicare for all?

Just one last question, has the Democratic Party lost the ideal of protecting and helping the working man which made it the big tent party in favor of some social issues that only a few actually care about and affects? Is the working man now left without a political party to call home. Certainly the Republican Party has nothing to offer him. Aw, just tell which bathroom to use.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315653 - 09/20/19 01:19 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14298
Loc: Whittier, California
Good points. Like I said, watching Democrats at war with each is almost as alarming as watching Republicans being at war with poor people.

Yes, Democrats seem to be glued to a kind of corporate oligarchy that overlooks working families. How to get that back...populism isn't the answer.

Medicare for All isn't fleshed out yet. It should be, but it isn't.
I know a few candidates are advocating the end of private insurance, but I also know that in the end we're probably going to wind up with a hybrid.


Edited by Jeffery J. Haas (09/20/19 01:22 AM)
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

Top
#315662 - 09/20/19 11:27 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 112
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Good points. Like I said, watching Democrats at war with each is almost as alarming as watching Republicans being at war with poor people.

Yes, Democrats seem to be glued to a kind of corporate oligarchy that overlooks working families. How to get that back...populism isn't the answer.

Medicare for All isn't fleshed out yet. It should be, but it isn't.
I know a few candidates are advocating the end of private insurance, but I also know that in the end we're probably going to wind up with a hybrid.


I think the Democrats have found out that they can with a wink and a nod talk bad about corporations and wall street while still receiving their tens of millions in donations. Did you know Hillary received and spent 1.191 billion to Trump's 646.8 million in 2016?

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/graphics/2016-presidential-campaign-fundraising/

2016 was the first presidential election where the candidate with less money won since 1964 when Goldwater outspent LBJ 16-10 million. A lot of normal Republican money went to Clinton or to no one as they refused to donate to Trump. But Trump was the master of the media hogging the spotlight by being the headliner in all the news reports and calling into all the morning talks shows whether they were for or against him. Trump knew how to utilize the free media where Hillary hid.

I do miss the big tent Democratic Party. But there is no going back. It is my opinion that the Democratic Party has been taken over by white Northeastern and West Coast progressive/liberals more concerned with social issues than the working man, middle class or the average American. The GOP wasn't much interested in them and still isn't.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315663 - 09/20/19 12:18 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14298
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Good points. Like I said, watching Democrats at war with each is almost as alarming as watching Republicans being at war with poor people.

Yes, Democrats seem to be glued to a kind of corporate oligarchy that overlooks working families. How to get that back...populism isn't the answer.

Medicare for All isn't fleshed out yet. It should be, but it isn't.
I know a few candidates are advocating the end of private insurance, but I also know that in the end we're probably going to wind up with a hybrid.


I think the Democrats have found out that they can with a wink and a nod talk bad about corporations and wall street while still receiving their tens of millions in donations. Did you know Hillary received and spent 1.191 billion to Trump's 646.8 million in 2016?


Yes, it was easy for Trump to trim his campaign expenditures.
Our mainstream media GAVE AWAY over TWO BILLION worth of free airtime to the guy. I'm not even talking about Fox here, I'm talking about all the other guys.

Originally Posted By: perotista

2016 was the first presidential election where the candidate with less money won since 1964 when Goldwater outspent LBJ 16-10 million. A lot of normal Republican money went to Clinton or to no one as they refused to donate to Trump. But Trump was the master of the media hogging the spotlight by being the headliner in all the news reports and calling into all the morning talks shows whether they were for or against him. Trump knew how to utilize the free media where Hillary hid.


So it's not some phenomena, it's the fact that Donald Trump, to HIS CREDIT, knows how to manipulate the news media, and he does.
By the way, I am temporarily from Missouri. You have to show me "Republican money going to Clinton" because I find that hard to believe other than a few fringe characters trying on some "sabo-taaaahge."

Originally Posted By: perotista

I do miss the big tent Democratic Party. But there is no going back. It is my opinion that the Democratic Party has been taken over by white Northeastern and West Coast progressive/liberals more concerned with social issues than the working man, middle class or the average American. The GOP wasn't much interested in them and still isn't.


What version of "big tent" do you mean? The big tent that included a Joe Lieberman who singlehandedly delivered the death blow to the public option, the only thing that would have made the ACA truly "Obamacare"? (and would have made it WORK BETTER by saving more people money)

Or do you miss the big tent that included Joe Biden giving away billions to private corrections by creating a jobs program disguised as "tough on crime" laws?

Was it the big tent that stood by while corporations outsourced at a record pace in the 2000's or the big tent that gave cover to invading Iraq?

None of this makes any sense to me because the above are all Republican positions, so it boils down to whether the Democrats are more like Republicans, or less like Republicans.

We can't BE Republicans. Republicans need to be Republicans.
Democrats need to be LEFT of center, not right of center.

You seem to believe that working families are mostly right of center.
I respectfully disagree, particularly when they're stuck with healthcare and college costs which equal more than a second mortgage payment and new car payment put together and they can't even be secure in knowing that the health insurance will cover them when they need it the most, like if one of them comes down with cancer or something equally serious.

I agree that the Democratic Party message isn't well organized or well directed, but it's campaign season 2020 in the embryonic stage.
Will you actually commit to listening to what Liz Warren really has to say?
I don't mean MSM 30 second sound bites, I mean longer interviews.
We know what Biden wants to say already, and I am sure, as the front runner, you won't miss hearing him.

Relax your standards for just a moment and listen to what Liz has to say, even if you will never ever vote for her.
What I am getting at is, she does appear to be for working families.
At least so far.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

Top
#315669 - 09/20/19 02:29 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17089
It's hard for me to lament the loss of the "big tent" when Biden, Bullock, Tester, Klobuchar, Tim Ryan and Tulsi Gabbard (I could go on) are part of the party, or claim that it is not the party of the working class... compared to the Republicans?! Really?!

It's just that the middle has moved so far right - or really, that the right has moved so far right, that we don't recognize moderates anymore. I can find moderates in the Democratic party, but what was left of moderates in the Republican party are making for the exits. Hence my "Where are the conservatives" thread.

But back to the NRA...now there is a moderate voice!

Top
#315671 - 09/20/19 03:15 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14298
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
It's hard for me to lament the loss of the "big tent" when Biden, Bullock, Tester, Klobuchar, Tim Ryan and Tulsi Gabbard (I could go on) are part of the party, or claim that it is not the party of the working class... compared to the Republicans?! Really?!

It's just that the middle has moved so far right - or really, that the right has moved so far right, that we don't recognize moderates anymore. I can find moderates in the Democratic party, but what was left of moderates in the Republican party are making for the exits. Hence my "Where are the conservatives" thread.

But back to the NRA...now there is a moderate voice!


Generic "middle of the road" Dems, like Kerry, Gore, Hillary?
None of them WON!! They all LOST!!

So let us please dispense with this "generic Democrat" big tent nonsense because while the arithmetic may or may not tally that way, when it's time to go to the polls, apparently people don't always vote the way they SAY they will otherwise Gore would have been POTUS, Kerry would have been POTUS and Hillary would be POTUS now.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

Top
Page 8 of 10 < 1 2 ... 6 7 8 9 10 >

Who's Online
0 registered (), 106 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Snarky_Politics, Moot, Ikari, perotista, ttwtt78640
6282 Registered Users
A2