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#315672 - 09/20/19 03:26 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15444
Loc: Florida
Quote:
watching Democrats at war with each other is almost as alarming as watching Republicans being at war with poor people.

No it's not. It's healthy politics. It's what primary elections are all about.

I want to see Joe Biden's skinny legs cut out from under him. If Warren then loses because Biden lovers refuse to vote for her then so be it. Let the Republicans do what they do best and destroy this nation completely.

We will then rebuild it.

Biden has no message. He stands for nothing. Like Obama but white and really old so not like Obama at all. He hasn't got two adorable little girls. He offers no hope for change. His eyes are on the past and he has no plan for the future.

Perotonista,I don't quite understand your fascination with which bathrooms trans people should use. They are people. If they look like a dude they should use the dude's room and vice versa. It's Republicans making a fuss over deviants in society and Democrats just standing up for rights that you would see trampled. The right to f*cking pee where you feel comfortable peeing. The right to happiness. Give it a rest. We don't spend a lot of time thinking about it except to shake our heads at what assh*les Republublicans can be when it comes to interfering with other peoples lives.

Speak a foriegn language in public? Do you get shouted at by Republicans or Democrats?

See a dickweed strolling through Walmart with a military style rifle on his shoulder Republican or Democrat?

Watch yet another prick with an AR-15 shoot a bunch of schoolkids. Republican or Democrat?

See a Nazi or KKK rally. Republican or Democrat?

Trans kid wants to use the school bathroom who makes a fuss?
Yep, it's Republicans worried about other peoples business.

Somebody has got to stand up for people's rights. For everybody's rights.

It aint Republicans. Except the right not to pay taxes. They all over that one.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#315675 - 09/20/19 04:03 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 113
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Good points. Like I said, watching Democrats at war with each is almost as alarming as watching Republicans being at war with poor people.

Yes, Democrats seem to be glued to a kind of corporate oligarchy that overlooks working families. How to get that back...populism isn't the answer.

Medicare for All isn't fleshed out yet. It should be, but it isn't.
I know a few candidates are advocating the end of private insurance, but I also know that in the end we're probably going to wind up with a hybrid.


I think the Democrats have found out that they can with a wink and a nod talk bad about corporations and wall street while still receiving their tens of millions in donations. Did you know Hillary received and spent 1.191 billion to Trump's 646.8 million in 2016?


Yes, it was easy for Trump to trim his campaign expenditures.
Our mainstream media GAVE AWAY over TWO BILLION worth of free airtime to the guy. I'm not even talking about Fox here, I'm talking about all the other guys.

Originally Posted By: perotista

2016 was the first presidential election where the candidate with less money won since 1964 when Goldwater outspent LBJ 16-10 million. A lot of normal Republican money went to Clinton or to no one as they refused to donate to Trump. But Trump was the master of the media hogging the spotlight by being the headliner in all the news reports and calling into all the morning talks shows whether they were for or against him. Trump knew how to utilize the free media where Hillary hid.


So it's not some phenomena, it's the fact that Donald Trump, to HIS CREDIT, knows how to manipulate the news media, and he does.
By the way, I am temporarily from Missouri. You have to show me "Republican money going to Clinton" because I find that hard to believe other than a few fringe characters trying on some "sabo-taaaahge."

Originally Posted By: perotista

I do miss the big tent Democratic Party. But there is no going back. It is my opinion that the Democratic Party has been taken over by white Northeastern and West Coast progressive/liberals more concerned with social issues than the working man, middle class or the average American. The GOP wasn't much interested in them and still isn't.


What version of "big tent" do you mean? The big tent that included a Joe Lieberman who singlehandedly delivered the death blow to the public option, the only thing that would have made the ACA truly "Obamacare"? (and would have made it WORK BETTER by saving more people money)

Or do you miss the big tent that included Joe Biden giving away billions to private corrections by creating a jobs program disguised as "tough on crime" laws?

Was it the big tent that stood by while corporations outsourced at a record pace in the 2000's or the big tent that gave cover to invading Iraq?

None of this makes any sense to me because the above are all Republican positions, so it boils down to whether the Democrats are more like Republicans, or less like Republicans.

We can't BE Republicans. Republicans need to be Republicans.
Democrats need to be LEFT of center, not right of center.

You seem to believe that working families are mostly right of center.
I respectfully disagree, particularly when they're stuck with healthcare and college costs which equal more than a second mortgage payment and new car payment put together and they can't even be secure in knowing that the health insurance will cover them when they need it the most, like if one of them comes down with cancer or something equally serious.

I agree that the Democratic Party message isn't well organized or well directed, but it's campaign season 2020 in the embryonic stage.
Will you actually commit to listening to what Liz Warren really has to say?
I don't mean MSM 30 second sound bites, I mean longer interviews.
We know what Biden wants to say already, and I am sure, as the front runner, you won't miss hearing him.

Relax your standards for just a moment and listen to what Liz has to say, even if you will never ever vote for her.
What I am getting at is, she does appear to be for working families.
At least so far.


No one is asking the Democratic Party to become the Republican Party. I think the Democratic has forgotten its roots, the working men in favor of weird stuff like which bathroom a transgender can use. Being for gay marriage is fine, love should decide not government. Also I'm in all favor of a woman being the only one who decides on abortion or not. Not government. I don't like the religious right much as they want to use government for their agenda. But then again so too does the Democrats. I like individual freedom with the individual having the right to choose what is best for him without a whole lot of government interference or dictates. I do think the Democratic Party has went way too far left, at least for me. I always classified myself as a Goldwater conservative with some of Perot thrown in.

By that I mean being fiscal responsible. Spending no more than what government takes in especially with the huge national debt we have. A balance budget. To get there if we have to cut spending, do it. If we have to raise taxes, do it. With our debt so high, it requires both in my opinion. We have one side who won't raise taxes and the other side who won't cut spending. That leaves me in no man's land.

I also believe in keeping government out of a citizen's private business and lives. This I suppose classifies as small government and enhances individual freedoms. As long as no one is being harmed.

Yes, I liked Joe Lieberman, I like Joe Biden, I like Amy Klobuchar, I liked Hickenlooper who was my first choice. Bullock I like and Gabbard peaks my interest. The rest, I haven't much use for. I'm not that freaken far left.

The big tent went away by the 1980's. The conservative wing of the Democrats had migrated for the most part to the Republicans of Reagan. The liberals of the GOP to the Democratic Party. Since 1980's with both parties moving further and further left and right, they started losing their moderates, the folks in the middle, the center ideological wise, the center left and center right. We'll never have a political party to accommodate most folks like the big tent did. Each party is too busy trying to placate the extremes of left and right.

If you look at party affiliation today, 29% Democratic, 27% Republican, 40% independent with independents on the rise. Why? Both parties don't represent middle America any more. By middle American I'm not talking geographically, I'm talking ideological wise.

I don't think either party recognizes how far left and right they have moved. That the hard core that is left in both parties think they're mainstream when they're not.

Let's face it, it's Biden, Warren and Sanders, one of those three will be the Democratic nominee. I don't think it will be Biden. Biden is too moderate for the today's Democratic Party. It will be Warren or Sanders, probably Warren who isn't very attractive to independents, but is very attractive to Democrats. The Democrats ignored America as a whole back in 2016. In February of 2016 a poll showed 56% of all Americans wanted the Democrats to nominate someone else other than Hillary. The Democrats ignored America as a whole which was their right. Will they do that again?
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#315677 - 09/20/19 04:17 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: NW Ponderer]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 113
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
It's hard for me to lament the loss of the "big tent" when Biden, Bullock, Tester, Klobuchar, Tim Ryan and Tulsi Gabbard (I could go on) are part of the party, or claim that it is not the party of the working class... compared to the Republicans?! Really?!

It's just that the middle has moved so far right - or really, that the right has moved so far right, that we don't recognize moderates anymore. I can find moderates in the Democratic party, but what was left of moderates in the Republican party are making for the exits. Hence my "Where are the conservatives" thread.

But back to the NRA...now there is a moderate voice!


Bullock, Klobuchar, Gabbard don't stand a snowball's chance in Hades of even coming close to the nomination. Look at who the Democrat's are supporting.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls...ation-6730.html

Klobuchar 1.5%, Gabbard 1.0%, Bullock 0.4%, No support for those moderates within the Democratic Party. None are far left enough. They belong to the Democratic Party only because the GOP is way too far right for a moderate of their stature and there are only two major political parties.

We need a viable third party for Americans not to the extreme left or right. We have a situation today where the Democratic Party represents approximately 30% of all Americans, the GOP close to 30% of all Americans with the remainder not being represented or having a political party to call home. They're forced to bounce back and forth between the hard left and the hard right.

We'll elected G.H.W. Bush, then Bill Clinton, then G.W. Bush, then Obama, then Trump trying to get some movement toward the middle. We gave the House to the democrats in 2006, then to the Republicans in 2010 and now back to the democrats in 2018. Hoping for some moderation. None is to be had with either major party. Just the extremes.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#315680 - 09/20/19 07:33 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14299
Loc: Whittier, California
If Liz Warren is considered "far left" then what was Teddy Roosevelt considered as? How about his grandson FDR? Were they both far left also?
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#315683 - 09/21/19 03:00 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9445
Loc: One of the Mexicos
FDR was Teddy's 5th cousin. Eleanor was Teddy's niece.


I don't think we are seeing the R and D parties drifting farther into their corners away from any ideological "center".

On the right, I see a descent into deep selfishness, greed, and disrespect - lies and lack of ethics are the tools of the trade. The few remaining moderate conservatives are standing outside holding their private parts saying, "Those aren't true conservatives". True, but they are the ones in charge, and they are the functional right-wing, and they are evil, destructive imbeciles.

On the left, I see a recent history of weak willed politicians who have been first trying to have influence by playing the game of the right (which they are not very good at) while mumbling about doing good things if they ever get in power again (see example: Joe Biden). They are standing around holding their private parts saying, "It's not fair!" True, but the mistake is letting the corrupt right make up the rules of the game.

The upstarts being branded on the left as extremists appear to me to be trying to identify the problems of our country, and the world, and to come up with solutions and plans to address them. That doesn't mean that their plans are necessarily good or workable, but it's a hell of a lot better than ignoring that there are serious problems and obstructing progress towards fixing them. As Jeffery indicates, they are not the most left of anybody in American history - they are not even lefter than Teddy Roosevelt (a Republican) on many of the most important issues.

BTW, that's what progressivism means to me - progress on finding solutions. People like me don't get our progressive views out of a box, we are thinking of them for ourselves. Maybe some of them align with previous progressive ideas, some don't. Let me point out that just because something has been "proven" to not work doesn't mean that it won't work with a few tweaks. For example, our system of making biochar, a continuous feed TLUD, was declared by two of the top experts in the field in 2010 to be impossible - it can't be done. They are now eating crow and recognizing that it's not only possible, it has solved many of the technical problems with automated mass production of biochar and associated energy recovery.

Perhaps the new political movement should not be identified as being on one hand or the other. Let's stop putting every idea and action into neatly labelled boxes that are already full of worn out ideologies.


_________________________
You canít solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#315684 - 09/21/19 03:19 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 113
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
If Liz Warren is considered "far left" then what was Teddy Roosevelt considered as? How about his grandson FDR? Were they both far left also?


A lot of this depends on one's political philosophy. TR was in an entirely different era and became president due to McKinley's assassination. If McKinley hadn't been assassinated would the voters have elected TR in 1904 if he hadn't been president already? Being TR was placed in the VP slot by the Republican Party to get him out of the way, he probably wouldn't even have been nominated. They just wanted him out of the governorship.

FDR was different, but again without the great depression he probably would never have become president. Again a complete different era. There's plenty of debate whether all the stuff FDR did to get America out of the depression helped or hurt in its longevity. But what FDR did was give everyone hope, which in my opinion makes the debate of helped or hurt irrelevant which is still today very much determined by partisan lines. FDR was invaluable, but like TR would never have become president without outside events.

Is Warren too far left, she is to me. Warren vs. Trump, third party vote against both. Biden vs. Trump, Biden. Klobuchar vs. Trump, klobuchar. Bullock vs. Trump, Bullock. The rest I don't know. What I do know, Trump won't get my vote. But that automatically doesn't mean the Democrat will. 54% of all independents disliked and didn't want neither Trump nor Clinton to become their next president.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-...candidates.aspx

Yet all but 12% chose one or the other. Lesser of two evils, sure. The least worst candidate, yep. I would have loved to see those 54% of independents who disliked and didn't want neither one vote their convictions. Independents made up 40% of the electorate in November of 2016, but only 31% of those who actually voted. A whole bunch stayed home whether than choose between two dislikes.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#315687 - 09/21/19 03:59 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17089
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
[L]et us please dispense with this "generic Democrat" big tent nonsense because while the arithmetic may or may not tally that way, when it's time to go to the polls, apparently people don't always vote the way they SAY they will otherwise Gore would have been POTUS, Kerry would have been POTUS and Hillary would be POTUS now.
I feel compelled to note that in two of those three instances, more people voted for them than the other "winning" candidate. (That kinda undercuts your point, my friend.)

I think it does illustrate, though, that distribution of moderates/progressives is not uniform. AOC would have no chance of winning outside of a few specific Districts, and Klobuchar wouldn't have a chance in most of NYC - forget Tester or Bullock! Trump's success was a fluke, but there is an underlying defect in the process (that point really belongs in an Electoral College thread, which I should start - or did I?). Distribution of political viewpoints is not geographically or culturally uniform. BTW, not all of my exemplars were presidential candidates (although there are nearly that many Democrats running).

There is a vast array of political viewpoints in our nation. That's the conceit of patch.com, Pew Research and political spectrum analyses:
I'm just of the view that there are more moderates in the Democratic party than the Republican. Also, all of the liberals and progressives. wink I don't think any of us knows where the center of the party is, frankly, including most of the presidential candidates.

Although I am progressive, I am a moderate progressive (yes, there is such an animal). Indeed, I think there are a few of us here that would fall into that category. Even if I had hair, it wouldn't be on fire, but I am moved to take action in my own community, and the larger community as well. Ironically (given the topic of this thread), I think there are a good deal of "moderates" in the NRA as well. But, perhaps like the Republican party itself, the membership's views are not reflected in the leadership's views. Maybe that is the problem with the SF Board's declaration. Is it the NRA that is the terrorists, or merely the leadership?

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#315689 - 09/21/19 05:50 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: NW Ponderer]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 113
If I may deal with final polling, considering the final polls have a margin of error of plus or minus three points.
2016 final polls 46-42 Hillary, actual results 48-46 Hillary, well within the margin of error.
2012 final polls, 49-46 Obama, actual results 51-47 Obama, again within the margin of error.
2008 final polls, 53-42 Obama, actual results 53-46 Obama. Obama's eight point margin vs. 11 in the final polls was within the margin of error, plus or minus 3 points.
2004 final polls, 49-49 tie, actual results 51-48 Bush, again within the margin of error.
2000 final polls, 48-46 Bush, actual results, a 48-48 tie with Gore receiving 48.4 to Bush's 48.9. Again well within the margin of error.
1996 final polls, 52-41 Bill Clinton, actual results, 49-41 Bill Clinton. Again within the margin of error.

And so on, on back. I don't think folks take into account the margin of error in the polls. Sure it's in the fine print. What the margin of error means is the poll has a 95% chance of being accurate, plus or minus 3 points.

What the polls can't take into account, just guess at is turnout. They tell us how all Americans feel or are likely to vote. but only on average 55% do vote.

Mr. Haas mentioned Gore, Kerry and Hillary. Let's look at turnout. In 2000 the Democrats had a 6 point advantage over Republicans in party affiliation, but only a four point advantage in actual turnout. 2004 the Democrats had a 4 point advantage in party affiliation, yet among those who turned out was tied at 37% each. 2016 Democrats were back up to a six point advantage but only a 3 point advantage in among those who actually turned out to vote.

The thing is in those three elections, the GOP had a higher percentage of its base turn out than the Democrats negating the bigger party's advantage in over all party affiliation.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#315741 - 09/22/19 06:07 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: NW Ponderer]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 113
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
[L]et us please dispense with this "generic Democrat" big tent nonsense because while the arithmetic may or may not tally that way, when it's time to go to the polls, apparently people don't always vote the way they SAY they will otherwise Gore would have been POTUS, Kerry would have been POTUS and Hillary would be POTUS now.
I feel compelled to note that in two of those three instances, more people voted for them than the other "winning" candidate. (That kinda undercuts your point, my friend.)

I think it does illustrate, though, that distribution of moderates/progressives is not uniform. AOC would have no chance of winning outside of a few specific Districts, and Klobuchar wouldn't have a chance in most of NYC - forget Tester or Bullock! Trump's success was a fluke, but there is an underlying defect in the process (that point really belongs in an Electoral College thread, which I should start - or did I?). Distribution of political viewpoints is not geographically or culturally uniform. BTW, not all of my exemplars were presidential candidates (although there are nearly that many Democrats running).

There is a vast array of political viewpoints in our nation. That's the conceit of patch.com, Pew Research and political spectrum analyses:
I'm just of the view that there are more moderates in the Democratic party than the Republican. Also, all of the liberals and progressives. wink I don't think any of us knows where the center of the party is, frankly, including most of the presidential candidates.

Although I am progressive, I am a moderate progressive (yes, there is such an animal). Indeed, I think there are a few of us here that would fall into that category. Even if I had hair, it wouldn't be on fire, but I am moved to take action in my own community, and the larger community as well. Ironically (given the topic of this thread), I think there are a good deal of "moderates" in the NRA as well. But, perhaps like the Republican party itself, the membership's views are not reflected in the leadership's views. Maybe that is the problem with the SF Board's declaration. Is it the NRA that is the terrorists, or merely the leadership?


I think you're were right about more moderates within the Democratic Party, at least until 2006 or after. Then something changed. 2006 was the last year independents were at 30% of the electorate. I view most independents ideological wise as being somewhere in-between the two major parties on the political spectrum. Although you do have some way to the right of the GOP and way to the left of the Democrats.

Since 2006 independents have shot up to 41% if one believes Gallup. Since 2006 Democrats have dropped from 35% down to 30%, Republicans from 30% down to 26%. As of 31 July 2019 anyway. Although the figures don't break it down to moderates, conservatives and liberals. It is my opinion since the Democrats got rid of their conservatives and the GOP its liberals. That since 2006 moderates are leaving both parties. That the major parties have moved too far left or right for them.

Now this may be my view of those in congress, not sure about the rank and file. In 2006 when the Democrats took back the house, they elected a lot of liberal Democrats who replaced moderate Republicans. In 2010 the reverse happened, conservative Republicans replaced moderate Democrats. Of the 63 seats lost by the Democrats that year, 51 were held by blue dog democrats.

Now 2018 might have seen a resurgence in the blue dogs or moderate Democratic congressional critters. Especially since 31 of the 40 districts won by the Democrats were districts Trump carried in 2016. But the leadership remains far left. Perhaps Pelosi realizes when it comes to impeachment, all the Republicans need is to win back 19 of those 31 districts in 2020 to regain the house. This could be one reason she opposes impeachment.

I think if one or the other party would move more toward the center political ideological wise. That party would win back some of the moderates they lost which became independents.That party would become the dominate party for the next 20-30 years.

Perhaps back to the time or era from FDR to Reagan when the Democrats average 45% of the electorate to 27% for the GOP. Back to a time when the Democrats controlled the House for 40 straight years and 56 out of 60. My two cents anyway.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#315749 - 09/22/19 10:26 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14299
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
[L]et us please dispense with this "generic Democrat" big tent nonsense because while the arithmetic may or may not tally that way, when it's time to go to the polls, apparently people don't always vote the way they SAY they will otherwise Gore would have been POTUS, Kerry would have been POTUS and Hillary would be POTUS now.


I feel compelled to note that in two of those three instances, more people voted for them than the other "winning" candidate. (That kinda undercuts your point, my friend.)



It would undercut my point if they had actually wound up in the White House.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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