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#315750 - 09/22/19 10:35 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: perotista]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14298
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
If Liz Warren is considered "far left" then what was Teddy Roosevelt considered as? How about his grandson FDR? Were they both far left also?


A lot of this depends on one's political philosophy. TR was in an entirely different era and became president due to McKinley's assassination. If McKinley hadn't been assassinated would the voters have elected TR in 1904 if he hadn't been president already? Being TR was placed in the VP slot by the Republican Party to get him out of the way, he probably wouldn't even have been nominated. They just wanted him out of the governorship.

FDR was different, but again without the great depression he probably would never have become president. Again a complete different era. There's plenty of debate whether all the stuff FDR did to get America out of the depression helped or hurt in its longevity. But what FDR did was give everyone hope, which in my opinion makes the debate of helped or hurt irrelevant which is still today very much determined by partisan lines. FDR was invaluable, but like TR would never have become president without outside events.

Is Warren too far left, she is to me. Warren vs. Trump, third party vote against both. Biden vs. Trump, Biden. Klobuchar vs. Trump, klobuchar. Bullock vs. Trump, Bullock. The rest I don't know. What I do know, Trump won't get my vote. But that automatically doesn't mean the Democrat will. 54% of all independents disliked and didn't want neither Trump nor Clinton to become their next president.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-...candidates.aspx

Yet all but 12% chose one or the other. Lesser of two evils, sure. The least worst candidate, yep. I would have loved to see those 54% of independents who disliked and didn't want neither one vote their convictions. Independents made up 40% of the electorate in November of 2016, but only 31% of those who actually voted. A whole bunch stayed home whether than choose between two dislikes.



What's an "outside event"?
Of course FDR wouldn't have been elected had it not been for the Great Depression. Politics is based mostly on events.
The Depression wasn't an OUTSIDE event, it was just an event, an event so profound that it changed people's thinking.

Quote:
“Mr. Hoover was an engineer. He knew that water trickled down. Put it uphill and let it go and it will reach the driest little spot. But he didn’t know that money trickled up. Give it to the people at the bottom and the people at the top will have it before night anyhow. But it will at least have passed through the poor fellow’s hands.”


That was Will Rogers, talking about the 1932 election and what contributed to FDR's win.
Weekly Article #518 (Nov. 27, 1932)

So an event changed the way folks think about their leadership in Washington. Some call it an outside event. Outside of what, politics?
Nothing like that is outside of politics, it IS politics.

And we've had forty years of trickle down economics all over again.
Result: Stock market at record highs, record number of billionaires and a rank and file all struggling to work their two or even three jobs to make ends meet. The economy is supposedly roaring but six in ten Americans cannot meet a four hundred dollar emergency.

That's an INSIDE event, right inside one's home and one's family.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#315754 - 09/23/19 01:37 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 112
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
If Liz Warren is considered "far left" then what was Teddy Roosevelt considered as? How about his grandson FDR? Were they both far left also?


A lot of this depends on one's political philosophy. TR was in an entirely different era and became president due to McKinley's assassination. If McKinley hadn't been assassinated would the voters have elected TR in 1904 if he hadn't been president already? Being TR was placed in the VP slot by the Republican Party to get him out of the way, he probably wouldn't even have been nominated. They just wanted him out of the governorship.

FDR was different, but again without the great depression he probably would never have become president. Again a complete different era. There's plenty of debate whether all the stuff FDR did to get America out of the depression helped or hurt in its longevity. But what FDR did was give everyone hope, which in my opinion makes the debate of helped or hurt irrelevant which is still today very much determined by partisan lines. FDR was invaluable, but like TR would never have become president without outside events.

Is Warren too far left, she is to me. Warren vs. Trump, third party vote against both. Biden vs. Trump, Biden. Klobuchar vs. Trump, klobuchar. Bullock vs. Trump, Bullock. The rest I don't know. What I do know, Trump won't get my vote. But that automatically doesn't mean the Democrat will. 54% of all independents disliked and didn't want neither Trump nor Clinton to become their next president.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-...candidates.aspx

Yet all but 12% chose one or the other. Lesser of two evils, sure. The least worst candidate, yep. I would have loved to see those 54% of independents who disliked and didn't want neither one vote their convictions. Independents made up 40% of the electorate in November of 2016, but only 31% of those who actually voted. A whole bunch stayed home whether than choose between two dislikes.



What's an "outside event"?
Of course FDR wouldn't have been elected had it not been for the Great Depression. Politics is based mostly on events.
The Depression wasn't an OUTSIDE event, it was just an event, an event so profound that it changed people's thinking.

Quote:
“Mr. Hoover was an engineer. He knew that water trickled down. Put it uphill and let it go and it will reach the driest little spot. But he didn’t know that money trickled up. Give it to the people at the bottom and the people at the top will have it before night anyhow. But it will at least have passed through the poor fellow’s hands.”


That was Will Rogers, talking about the 1932 election and what contributed to FDR's win.
Weekly Article #518 (Nov. 27, 1932)

So an event changed the way folks think about their leadership in Washington. Some call it an outside event. Outside of what, politics?
Nothing like that is outside of politics, it IS politics.

And we've had forty years of trickle down economics all over again.
Result: Stock market at record highs, record number of billionaires and a rank and file all struggling to work their two or even three jobs to make ends meet. The economy is supposedly roaring but six in ten Americans cannot meet a four hundred dollar emergency.

That's an INSIDE event, right inside one's home and one's family.


I remember another quote by Will Rogers, "I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat."
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#316432 - 10/08/19 03:40 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17089
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
[L]et us please dispense with this "generic Democrat" big tent nonsense because while the arithmetic may or may not tally that way, when it's time to go to the polls, apparently people don't always vote the way they SAY they will otherwise Gore would have been POTUS, Kerry would have been POTUS and Hillary would be POTUS now.


I feel compelled to note that in two of those three instances, more people voted for them than the other "winning" candidate. (That kinda undercuts your point, my friend.)



It would undercut my point if they had actually wound up in the White House.
The principle of democracy is that the person who gets the most votes better represents the mood/ political view of the voting community. Using that metric, in 2000 and 2016 the political views of the country were better represented by Gore and Clinton, respectively. I think that is also reflected in 2018. On a national basis, the country is more liberal than conservative. Polls on particular subjects support this conclusion. But voting is not conducted on a national basis. Hence this disconnect. Neither Congress nor the electoral college reflect the actual political make-up of the nation as a whole, but the geographical mal-distribution of political power.

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#316443 - 10/09/19 01:20 AM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1583
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
[L]et us please dispense with this "generic Democrat" big tent nonsense because while the arithmetic may or may not tally that way, when it's time to go to the polls, apparently people don't always vote the way they SAY they will otherwise Gore would have been POTUS, Kerry would have been POTUS and Hillary would be POTUS now.


I feel compelled to note that in two of those three instances, more people voted for them than the other "winning" candidate. (That kinda undercuts your point, my friend.)



It would undercut my point if they had actually wound up in the White House.
The principle of democracy is that the person who gets the most votes better represents the mood/ political view of the voting community. Using that metric, in 2000 and 2016 the political views of the country were better represented by Gore and Clinton, respectively. I think that is also reflected in 2018. On a national basis, the country is more liberal than conservative. Polls on particular subjects support this conclusion. But voting is not conducted on a national basis. Hence this disconnect. Neither Congress nor the electoral college reflect the actual political make-up of the nation as a whole, but the geographical mal-distribution of political power.
That is why we have a republican government. We have the House of Representatives which reflects the popular view and the Senate which reflects the status quo. Just as the Senate is one of the Constitutional checks on the House of Representatives the Electoral College is a Constitutional check on the popular vote in a Presidential election.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#316464 - 10/09/19 03:08 PM Re: SF Board of Supervisors declare NRA a domestic terrorist organization [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17089
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
That is why we have a republican government. We have the House of Representatives which reflects the popular view and the Senate which reflects the status quo. Just as the Senate is one of the Constitutional checks on the House of Representatives the Electoral College is a Constitutional check on the popular vote in a Presidential election.
The problem, though, is they don't actually represent the popular view. The House is skewed by nearly two dozen seats.
Quote:
Despite its name, the House of Representatives is not so representative.

As the chart below shows, the total vote differential between the two parties for elections to the House in 2016 was 1.2 percent. But the difference in the number of seats is 10.8 percent, giving a total of 21 extra seats to Republicans.
Misrepresentation in the House of Representatives (Brookings); The Congressional Map Has A Record-Setting Bias Against Democrats (FiveThirtyEight).
Quote:
In the last few decades, Democrats have expanded their advantages in California and New York — states with huge urban centers that combined to give Clinton a 6 million vote edge, more than twice her national margin. But those two states elect only 4 percent of the Senate. Meanwhile, Republicans have made huge advances in small rural states — think Arkansas, North and South Dakota, Iowa, Louisiana, Montana and West Virginia — that wield disproportionate power in the upper chamber compared to their populations.

We can quantify the partisan bias of Congress over time by measuring the distance between each national presidential result and each year’s presidential result in the median House and Senate seats. So in 2008, for example, Barack Obama won the popular vote by 7.3 percentage points, but Democrats won the median House seat by 4.4 points — a pro-GOP bias of 2.9 points.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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