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#316797 - 10/16/19 09:02 PM Re: Are both "sides" equally corrupt? [Re: logtroll]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3595
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I have previously posted on this one. I have given it some thought. The question was "are both sides equally corrupt". My post didn't really address that but just mentioned that there are some issues where both sides were unable to resolve, one was, I think, the ability to pass a law enforcing those that put up political ads to put their names on their product.

Anyway, as far as equality in corruption I think the most corrupt, without a doubt, based on current facts, is that the Republicans win as being the most corrupt hands down. I think that Trump is, flat out, a professional criminal and liar, doesn't pay his bills, and is also a philanderer. The only real question about that is the criminal part but I suspect, if the Dems can get it together and for testimony that proving criminality is a given. If they fail (likely) then that's on the Dems. Pelosi mentioned, yesterday, something like; "All Trump roads lead to Putin". If they got something on that one then I missed "traitor".

As usual - in the fullness of time.................

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#316800 - 10/16/19 09:50 PM Re: Are both "sides" equally corrupt? [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17271
Loc: Florida
This most recent discovery that Trump has used one set of books for lenders and another for tax purposes is probably criminal. And it's probably indicative of a lot of other criminal activities. It has smelled of money laundering from the start. Was it Deutschbank who just discovered they "accidentally destroyed" all of Trump's documents?

Guys in the international money laundering industry usually keep a low profile to avoid arrest and incarceration. Trump has gone where no crime boss has ever gone before.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#316808 - 10/17/19 03:41 AM Re: Are both "sides" equally corrupt? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10328
Loc: One of the Mexicos
I went to two candidates’ forums for Soil and Water Conservation District board members last night and tonight. SWCD’s are subdivisions of state government and members serve four year terms. Nov. 5 will be the first election in 21 years - how does that work?, you might be thinking. Turns out that the several members who have controlled it all that time didn’t see fit to let the public know that there were elections, so nobody ran against the incumbents, and because there were no challengers they would cancel the elections. The fact is they were so un-transparent that nobody in the general public even knew that it was an elected board. Whenever a board member stepped down they would simply exercise their authority to appoint a hand-picked replacement who would become an elected member at the next cancelled election.

It has been a real good ol’ boys club where most of the funding for projects went to friends and family, and contractors were sole-sourced without competitive bidding. And the District had become virulently anti-environment, funded by state tax dollars. Somehow it all came to light a couple of months ago and three interlopers made it into a real horserace.

Since this topic is a question of equal corruption of both sides, it’s probably notable that the good ol’ boys are all rightwingers, and the three challengers are all lefty progressives advocating the representation of all the spectrum of residents in full sunlight.

Mark this as a community level example of one side being egregiously more corrupt than the other.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#316809 - 10/17/19 04:53 AM Re: Are both "sides" equally corrupt? [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10345
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
I'm not interested in facts I just want Biden to lose.


And that's a perfectly reasonable desire. But then again, you are not spreading malicious lies about Biden or his family. I would rather Biden lose as well, because I think a lot of other people could do a better job.

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#316810 - 10/17/19 05:00 AM Re: Are both "sides" equally corrupt? [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10345
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
one set of books for lenders and another for tax purposes is probably criminal


It most certainly IS criminal and lots of people have gone to prison for that. Hiding money used to pay off bimbos is also criminal money laundering. I think there will be way more than enough for a gigantic RICO prosecution when all the rot is exposed to the light of day. And the cool thing about RICO, is they can sentence people to prison, fine them, and confiscate all their ill-gotten gains. When it comes to Trump, all his money is probably ill-gotten. It is all about conspiracy as well, so it could sweep up a lot of his stooges and enablers. Like all the people ignoring subpoenas.

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#316818 - 10/17/19 01:24 PM Re: Are both "sides" equally corrupt? [Re: logtroll]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
I have given this forum several examples of progressive candidates getting torpedo’d in the primary by the Democratic Party, Log.
Much like the Biden corruption, it goes unnoticed and uncommented.
The similarities between the Conservative neoliberal and conservative parties is really amazing.
Each side huffs and puffs over corruption while the other side sends in the talking heads to explain it away.
Each side believes it to be righteous while the other is morally, ethically repugnant.

Both play in the same sandbox as their adherents will remain blind and uncritical to their party. It’s a good con.


Edited by chunkstyle (10/17/19 01:25 PM)

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#316819 - 10/17/19 01:35 PM Re: Are both "sides" equally corrupt? [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Bull.
Crack smoking fail son gets a board seat on Burisma right after getting kicked out of Navy pissing hot for coke. Nothing to do with dad’s being VP. He’s fighting crimes for Bamz. Forget the crack smoking. He’s the man for the the job of Ukrainian economic and political graft crime fighting? Or whatever other lame neoliberal rational you can use.

It sounds hypocritical to ignore (condone) your political faction while yelling about the ‘other side’.


Edited by chunkstyle (10/17/19 01:38 PM)

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#316820 - 10/17/19 02:35 PM Re: Are both "sides" equally corrupt? [Re: chunkstyle]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10328
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Seems we have a cross-talk miscommunication where one of us is making broad generalizations and the other is noting empirical evidence. I am a project oriented type who likes to try to implement solutions. To do that I have to engage in ways where I can participate meaningfully, and it involves understanding the problem. I can do something about the SWCD problem where corrupt righties have stolen the District for their own personal use.

Regarding the Bidens, my abilities are much more limited. Other than joining you in generically condemning all Democrats as equally corrupt as the Republicans, with which I disagree, about all I can do is vote for, or against, specific candidates.

I have never taken the position that all Democrats are corruption-free, and I agree that corporate capitalism is a cancer that threatens our entire culture. But the selection of actions that are available to me requires some level of interaction with the unpure, otherwise I would only be screaming from the sidelines.

What are the actions you are taking to fix the problems? I asked this before and noted that your response was to call for some general conceptual things, in which I was unable to identify any action that I could take.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#316821 - 10/17/19 03:12 PM Re: Are both "sides" equally corrupt? [Re: logtroll]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Your evidence of republican corruption being worse than democrats is no more valid than my experience on campaigns getting torpedoed by the national committee in favor of candidates larded up with hedge fund and fracking industry money.

I work to get representatives elected that have my interest. As you are trying to do. There's no cross talk here.

My experience is one that is shared nation wide and has been covered extensively by various reporting. I've given links to them in the past. The right wing, pro fossil fuel, pro hedge fund portion of the party is the dominant wing and has been so for decades now. My solution to that is to get progressives elected.

Your reporting on a local board level. Yes, they are important as are school boards, district boards, etc...

I have worked at this level as well. The corruption is near identical at this level. You may not like the style of the other side but the grift is much the same. At least the republican side is unashamed to admit it.

Finally, I believe that the thread started by you was to argue if both sides are corrupt. I don't believe that having the solutions was a requirement to post on this question. If that is something you want addressed, aren't you supposed to be starting another thread based on your previous posting logic? S'funny how that logic keeps changing with you.

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#316822 - 10/17/19 03:24 PM Re: Are both "sides" equally corrupt? [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17425
The question, as I read it, was: are both "sides" equally corrupt? Beyond fluster, bluster and opinionating I think that point is being somewhat overlooked, at least by some. In the 1970-1980s, I think an argument, notwithstanding Nixon, could have been made that the Democrats had managed near-parity in that field, what with Dan Rostenkowski, et al. The bane of long control is complacency to petty corruption.

But Reagan ushered in an era a brazen corruption by Republicans that hadn't been seen since ancient Rome or Medici Italy. Democrats are rank amateurs and upstarts by comparison. Reagan pursued, professionally , the imperial presidency less than a decade after Nixon brought the office crashing down. Iran-contra, anyone? He made a practice of appointing enemies of the agencies to dismantle them, and put cronies in charge to make money off their offices. James Watt ring a bell? Ed Meese?
Quote:
The presidency of Ronald Reagan in the United States was marked by multiple scandals, resulting in the investigation, indictment, or conviction of over 138 administration officials, the largest number for any U.S. president.
(Wikipedia) Bush, with the tutelage of tricky Dick Cheney, practically perfected it by starting a war to profit from - that is still generating income! Trump is just the latest exemplar, and most ardent acolyte, of profit-from-office politics.

Yes, both "sides" are corrupt, but trying to "equate" their delinquency is a ploy. When 90% of the corruption is on one side of the ledger, bookies know how to set the book. The spread is laughable.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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