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#316242 - 10/04/19 02:42 AM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: logtroll]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42502
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

Harvard Law’s Laurence Tribe reveals the ‘theme’ for impeachment — that he’s going to help write

Tell us more Professor Tribe.

Quote:
“That theme is that when someone uses the power and majesty of the presidency, its financial power, its military power — not to benefit the United States — but to benefit him or herself and his or her own re-election,” he explained. “That is a betrayal of a fiduciary duty to the nation.”

“And that is what is involved in the pattern — the continuing pattern — of abuses that is typified Ukraine and China, but extends beyond them,” he continued.


smile
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#316249 - 10/04/19 11:23 AM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: logtroll]
perotista Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 445
I'm going to throw some numbers out. I received my new YouGov poll yesterday. Since 85% of Democrats support impeachment, 85% of Republicans do not, I'm going to ignore them and concentrate on independents, the less to non-partisan, the non-affiliated. I'd like to know folks make of these numbers.

Remember these are independents, independents only.
Impeach Trump 36% for, 38% against question 27
Remove Trump from Office 40% for, 34% against question 28
Trump favorable/unfavorable 39% favorable/48% unfavorable question 56A
Generic presidential vote 26% of independents will vote for the Democrat, 29% for Trump, 19% state it depends, 26% state they will not vote. question 43
Run for reelection 33% want Trump to run again, 45% do not question 74

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/eb2rrb9ofh/econTabReport.pdf

All of this makes sense except the generic presidential vote. I do like the fact YouGov has will not vote as an answer since we all know approximately 45% of all eligible voters won't vote, only an average of 55% do. Having this as an answer I think makes YouGov a more reliable read than all others who don't have this option forcing people to pick one or the other candidate even knowing they won't be voting.

Isn't it interesting that although a plurality of independents want Trump impeached and removed, a small plurality say they will vote for him over a Democratic candidate yet un-named. Then there are it depends independents. My take on that is their vote hinges on who the Democrats nominate.

Could these independents who state they would vote for Trump over any Democratic candidate be republican leaning independents who quite a lot want Trump gone, but would never vote for a Democrat? Or do those percentages show how many independents are in either the pro or anti Trump camps? Who knows?


Edited by perotista (10/04/19 12:01 PM)
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#316250 - 10/04/19 01:27 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: perotista]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16492
Loc: Florida
I'm always surprised at how conservative independents are in the polls. But then, I don't trust polls anyway. Polling is generally just a snapshot of how people who take polls feel.

I was concerned when the supposed impeachment inquiry began, but it seems to be more political drama than anything else. Just the House doing its part to get a Democrat elected.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#316251 - 10/04/19 02:48 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: logtroll]
perotista Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 445
I use polls to more or less spot trends. Trump's two to four point lead among independents over the generic Democratic Presidential Candidate has been constant since the first of the year.

It's like I look at the RCP averages and see the trend for the Democratic Nomination, nationwide is for Warren. Biden and Sanders has been pretty much a flat line since August with Warren rising 8 points.

If one is a Warren fan, that's good news, not so good for Biden and Sanders. It's isn't the numbers as much as it is the trend. A trend over a couple to three months means more than just the numbers of a single poll. At least to me. This is why in the Generic Presidential the steadiness of Trump's lead among independents mean much more than the poll showing him ahead by 2 or 3 points. These folks seem to have made their mind up about Trump and the Democrats. But we have a huge 40% or so yet to make up their minds. This latter number is an important one in my opinion.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#316254 - 10/04/19 03:22 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Online   sad
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17333
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: rporter314
This is one of the situations the Founders envisioned.

Once verified the final nail goes in that coffin, but I would like to see the clown show ... Trump supporters ingratiating themselves in the most servile and obsequious ways to throw away what little integrity any would have and certainly lose all self respect for any number of reasons.
As if on cue...

Here is one of the best deconstructions of Trump-Defender Syndrome sufferer's excuses I've read: John Harwood.
I see that you are quoting the liberal talking heads again, NW. Apparently you don't believe that Pres. Trump has the right to be defended. If you did you would not condemn someone from defending Trump you would encourage it. To say that someone suffers from "Trump-Defender Syndrome" is to criticize anyone who defends Trump.
My friend, I wish for a moment you would get out of your ultra-partisan cocoon and actually consider what you say. So far your only response has been a predictable partisan outburst devoid of serious thought. Let me try to focus your attention:

First, the White House released a summary of the phone call Trump made to Ukraine, so the content is not disputable. Other evidence, including Trump's public admission is readily available.

Second, "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" and "innocent until proven guilty" have no applicability here. That only applies at the end of a criminal proceeding. So, that assertion is proverbial smoke, wherever it is blown. It will be at least 18 months before Trump can go to trial and the likelihood of a Ford-Nixon pardon deal is extremely high.

Third, the behavior that Trump admitted engaging in is at the heart of the concerns expressed throughout the Constitutional Convention and in the Federalist essays. I presume you know this, which is why you won't address it.

Now, I challenge you to refute any of this with facts and I will respond accordingly. Continue with your partisan tirades and I will ridicule accordingly. Deal?

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#316307 - 10/06/19 02:22 AM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9527
Loc: North San Diego County
I see Pence has 10 days to decide if he wants to go down with the ship or cooperate with a subpoena and maybe get to be President when Trump is convicted. The House subpoena came with an explicit warning that failure to respond would lead to his own impeachment for Obstruction. He has to decide if he's going to jump under the bus with Trump, or claim to be an uninformed patsy: A victim of Trump's manipulations.

Get the popcorn ready, this should be good...

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#316310 - 10/06/19 03:19 AM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42502
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I see Pence has 10 days to decide if he wants to go down with the ship or cooperate with a subpoena and maybe get to be President when Trump is convicted. The House subpoena came with an explicit warning that failure to respond would lead to his own impeachment for Obstruction. He has to decide if he's going to jump under the bus with Trump, or claim to be an uninformed patsy: A victim of Trump's manipulations.

Get the popcorn ready, this should be good...

Mother is already measuring the Oval Office for new drapes. But what Mother doesn't know is that Mike needs to be forgiven.

Mother, please forgive Mike, for he has sinned...too.

smile
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#316313 - 10/06/19 04:55 AM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: rporter314
This is one of the situations the Founders envisioned.

Once verified the final nail goes in that coffin, but I would like to see the clown show ... Trump supporters ingratiating themselves in the most servile and obsequious ways to throw away what little integrity any would have and certainly lose all self respect for any number of reasons.
As if on cue...

Here is one of the best deconstructions of Trump-Defender Syndrome sufferer's excuses I've read: John Harwood.
I see that you are quoting the liberal talking heads again, NW. Apparently you don't believe that Pres. Trump has the right to be defended. If you did you would not condemn someone from defending Trump you would encourage it. To say that someone suffers from "Trump-Defender Syndrome" is to criticize anyone who defends Trump.
My friend, I wish for a moment you would get out of your ultra-partisan cocoon and actually consider what you say. So far your only response has been a predictable partisan outburst devoid of serious thought. Let me try to focus your attention:

First, the White House released a summary of the phone call Trump made to Ukraine, so the content is not disputable. Other evidence, including Trump's public admission is readily available.
Here is the transcript of Pres. Trump's phone call to the Ukrainian President. Phone Call The Department of Justice found that Pres. Trump did not break the law. DOJ
Quote:
The DOJ’s office of legal counsel “concluded that the complaint didn’t meet the narrow technical standard for passing on a complaint from the intel community to Congress”, according to Williams, because it wasn’t an intelligence activity and didn’t include any intel employees.


Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Second, "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" and "innocent until proven guilty" have no applicability here. That only applies at the end of a criminal proceeding. So, that assertion is proverbial smoke, wherever it is blown. It will be at least 18 months before Trump can go to trial and the likelihood of a Ford-Nixon pardon deal is extremely high.

WTF?
Proof beyond a reasonable doubt is not applicable here? That is applicable in every trial in this country! It is what the prosecution MUST do to obtain a conviction of whoever is being tried for any and all crimes. Innocent until proven guilty only applies at the end of a criminal proceeding? No, everyone whether it is the President of the United States or you, NW Ponderer, are innocent of any crime you might be accused of until you have been tried. It doesn't matter if the trial is in a local courthouse of the US Senate! Everyone is innocent until the the jury, or Senators, returns with a guilty verdict.
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Third, the behavior that Trump admitted engaging in is at the heart of the concerns expressed throughout the Constitutional Convention and in the Federalist essays. I presume you know this, which is why you won't address it.
Please provide proof of Trump's "confession."

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Now, I challenge you to refute any of this with facts and I will respond accordingly. Continue with your partisan tirades and I will ridicule accordingly. Deal?
I have. But you will doubt the legitimacy of my link about what the DOJ said because the source is a conservative one. For you to accept a conservative source would require you to break out of your ultra partisan cocoon. No, there is no "deal." All you can do is ridicule people in your biased attempts to prove what you believe. Your primary method of replying to the comments of those who disagree with is to ridicule them and it is extremely obnoxious.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#316314 - 10/06/19 12:08 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10004
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Señor Hatrack,

I want to help you out of your confusion. There is an impeachment investigation going on, not a trial.

The things you are in a fret about are the facts of the matter that are being investigated, not judgments.

I suggest you not jump to conclusions - relax a little and enjoy the Trump Reality Show. And don’t forget to buy something from the sponsors.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#316316 - 10/06/19 01:30 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10004
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Here is an excellent in-depth analysis...

_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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