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#317872 - 11/10/19 01:54 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9585
Loc: One of the Mexicos
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You canít solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#317873 - 11/10/19 04:51 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: logtroll]
perotista Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 233


Strong support for Trump among veterans in new national poll

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/penta...-national-poll/

And here's one on military officers, although it doesn't give you a poll or percentage. It certainly reflects some military officers don't like Trump much.

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/penta...-national-poll/

Now going to my VFW and American Legion meetings, Trump isn't talked much about. Of course talk about him would take place in casual conversations prior to and after the meetings. Not during. That was also the Case when Obama was president, he wasn't either. Where there was a lot of talk was the time leading up to the presidential election. Hillary certainly wasn't liked and the butt of a lot of jokes. Veterans did vote for Trump 60-34 over Hillary with 5% voting third party against both.

https://www.cnn.com/election/2016/results/exit-polls

One thing you need to understand by the lack of talk is once a president is elected, he is our CINC, commander in chief. Regardless of who that is, he gets the respect of the office. The military mind at work.

This shouldn't be a surprise. Veterans have been voting heavily republican since Vietnam. They tend to view the Democratic Party as anti military. Even the 2018 midterms when the public as a whole voted for the Democratic congressional candidates 55-44 over Republicans, Veterans voted for the Republican congressional candidates 58-41

https://www.cnn.com/election/2018/exit-polls
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#317874 - 11/10/19 05:00 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: perotista]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6975
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
Regardless of who that is, he gets the respect of the office

Does that mean get gets respect because of the office??

I respect the office, but I have no respect for Mr Trump as a person. He does not earn my respect because of the office. I cannot and will not bend the knee.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
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#317876 - 11/10/19 07:40 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: rporter314]
perotista Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 233
Originally Posted By: rporter314
Quote:
Regardless of who that is, he gets the respect of the office

Does that mean get gets respect because of the office??

I respect the office, but I have no respect for Mr Trump as a person. He does not earn my respect because of the office. I cannot and will not bend the knee.


No body's asking you too. But with us military types it would be, "Yes, Mr. President," or "No, Mr President," regardless of who the president is. You would also see a snappy salute, again regardless who is president.

Most of those on active duty aren't political. In an average presidential election only around 40% vote compared to 55% on average for those not in the military. Retirees and older veterans, that average goes up to perhaps surpass the average non-military voting public.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#317882 - 11/10/19 09:53 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8945
Loc: North San Diego County
Since all of our military has sworn allegiance to our constitution, I think it's fitting they see the Commander-In-Chief as the top of their chain of command. They are loyal to the President. But if the President was legally impeached, a new President would take office and their loyalty would be to that person. That's a very important point: Their loyalty is to the office, not the person. And that's exactly what our Republic requires.

Now this does not mean they have avoided their responsibility to resist illegal orders. High ranking officers tend to be well educated, so their ability to recognize orders as illegal tend to be better than lower ranks. But every soldier has that responsibility.

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#317883 - 11/10/19 09:53 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: perotista]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14604
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: perotista


This shouldn't be a surprise. Veterans have been voting heavily republican since Vietnam. They tend to view the Democratic Party as anti military.


Yes, thanks to a ton of PR help by a certain political party who shall remain nameless, the military CONTINUES to view the Democratic Party as anti-military, even after Republicans consistently underfund the safety of our soldiers, give conflicting orders and leave them high and dry once they come home sick and broken.

If the goal is to create a military with a one-sided view of Americans, they're succeeding, which also means that they are succeeding in sowing the seeds of the destruction of democracy from right within our own ranks.
Democrats have faithfully served in uniform for our entire history and continue to do so today.

Bring back the draft and establish at least a year of compulsory service in exchange for things like free education. That will thin the ranks of the so called "elite right wing warrior class".
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#317885 - 11/10/19 10:55 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: pondering_it_all]
perotista Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 233
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Since all of our military has sworn allegiance to our constitution, I think it's fitting they see the Commander-In-Chief as the top of their chain of command. They are loyal to the President. But if the President was legally impeached, a new President would take office and their loyalty would be to that person. That's a very important point: Their loyalty is to the office, not the person. And that's exactly what our Republic requires.

Now this does not mean they have avoided their responsibility to resist illegal orders. High ranking officers tend to be well educated, so their ability to recognize orders as illegal tend to be better than lower ranks. But every soldier has that responsibility.

I agree, it's to the office of the presidency. The CINC, who that is, is irrelevant.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#317886 - 11/10/19 11:16 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: perotista]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14604
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: perotista

I agree, it's to the office of the presidency. The CINC, who that is, is irrelevant.


As it should be.
If we ever reach the point where adherence to the platform of a particular party is a requirement for military obedience and respect for chain of command, we are finished as a nation and just on our first voyage as an authoritarian cult led by a junta.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#317887 - 11/10/19 11:25 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 233
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: perotista


This shouldn't be a surprise. Veterans have been voting heavily republican since Vietnam. They tend to view the Democratic Party as anti military.


Yes, thanks to a ton of PR help by a certain political party who shall remain nameless, the military CONTINUES to view the Democratic Party as anti-military, even after Republicans consistently underfund the safety of our soldiers, give conflicting orders and leave them high and dry once they come home sick and broken.

If the goal is to create a military with a one-sided view of Americans, they're succeeding, which also means that they are succeeding in sowing the seeds of the destruction of democracy from right within our own ranks.
Democrats have faithfully served in uniform for our entire history and continue to do so today.

Bring back the draft and establish at least a year of compulsory service in exchange for things like free education. That will thin the ranks of the so called "elite right wing warrior class".

Thereís a history as to why. This isnít meant to be partisan rhetoric, just providing some basic reasons why. Most military like the country at large were Democrats during FDR and Truman. Eisenhower won a bunch over to the Republicans, but still the Democrats held sway. Vietnam, with the Democratic Party taking up the anti-war side as highlighted by the surrender at any cost campaign by McGovern probably was a turning point. Back then the Democratic Party among the military became known as the peace dove party.

Then the drawdown from Vietnam era figures which occurred during Jimmy Carter and the hollow army. Now any president at that time would have drawn down our forces, but it happening after McGovern campaign reinforced the idea. For those of us left in the military at the time, Jimmy was real good to us. I liked Jimmy and voted for him twice. Reagan then built our forces back up over quite a lot of objections from Democrats. Then another drawdown under Bill Clinton. G.W. Bush added a couple of hundred thousand more troops only to see Obama draw them back down. This is just the highlights without going into detail.

Another reason today for roughly 60% of the military supporting the Republican Party is that 44% of all active duty comes from the south. A very Republican area. Few come from the Northeast and West Coast.

https://www.ozy.com/acumen/why-the-u-s-military-is-so-southern/72100/

Then it seems with every campaign the Democratic candidate is always talking about cutting the military and increasing social programs. If youíre in the military or a veteran, you donít want that. So like everyone else, those in the military tend to vote their own self interests. Which is usually Republican.

Also the military mindset is completely different from the civilian one. Perhaps itís the training, the environment they live in and under, lifeís experiences, we just plain think different. Not right or wrong from a civilian thinking, but different.

The draft? Why, we have an all volunteer military force. Thereís nothing stopping other regions of the country from joining. If you think our military is too right wing, then get more folks from the Northeast and west coast to join. Theyíre free to do so.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#317888 - 11/11/19 12:40 AM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: perotista]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6975
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I am confused.


Originally Posted By: Manual for Courts Martial, Rule 916(d)
It is a defense to any offense that the accused was acting pursuant to orders unless the accused knew the orders to be unlawful or a person of ordinary sense and understanding would have known the orders to be unlawful.


Yes snap to lawful orders ... but should anyone snap to when a president issues unlawful, or ethically compromised orders? I suspect DoD concluded the stop order from OMB was illegal and did not follow the presidents orders ... NSC Adv Bolton did not snap to and ordered rescinding the illegal order

This occupant of the WH has exposed himself as a possible unwitting agent of Russia. Would following his orders be the same as Putin ordering American soldiers?

I seriously believe the SC should have emptied the docket and considered only the Constitutional issues raised by this occupant and his attempted destruction of America. He believes he is above the law and operates as if he is a monarch.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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