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#316924 - 10/19/19 02:55 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 7240
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I wasn't the only one nor the first to say when Dir Comey reopened investigation into Sec Clinton, the wind went out of her sails for which she did not have time to recover.

I won't pay attention to any polls until Iowa caucus. Gotta see which way the wind is blowing.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty
Get off the crazy train!!! ... dump Trump

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#316926 - 10/19/19 03:05 AM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: rporter314]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17040
Loc: Florida
Sorry about spoiling it for by announcing Warren's inevitable win.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#316939 - 10/19/19 01:55 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: NW Ponderer]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 711
I once resigned myself to the inevitable Hillary Clinton presidency around Feb of 2016 when it became apparent the Republicans were going to nominate Trump in that good news, bad news election. The good news, Hillary lost, the bad news, Trump won.

Yes, I have pretty much resigned myself to Warren becoming the Democratic nominee also. Now that doesn't mean I have to support her or even like her or can't work against her. I'm not a Northeastern Liberal, my politics vary depending on the issue and the candidates. I'm not a party animal which let's the party decide my stances on issues and who to vote for.

Both major parties hate folks like me, they know they can't count on me like a mindless robot. They know I might vote for them, might vote for the other guy or even vote against both. I'm a wildcard, an untamed wild animal so to speak that refused to be tamed by either major party.

If Warren wins, that's life. If Trump wins reelection, so be it. I refuse to help either one. In fact if that is the match up, like in 2016, I'll be working to get folks to vote third party against both.

My political goal is to get a viable third party established to counter the extreme left and right politics of our two existing major parties. Probably a dream that will never come true especially since Republicans and Democrats write our election laws and they do so as a mutual protection act. If there is one thing both major parties agree on, it's that no viable third party shall ever arise. They love their monopoly of our two party system and both will do everything and anything possible to ensure their monopoly never ends.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#316943 - 10/19/19 04:34 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: perotista]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17040
Loc: Florida
Quote:
My political goal is to get a viable third party established to counter the extreme left and right politics of our two existing major parties.


And Senator Hatrack's goal is a return to Federalism. Neither is going to happen. I don't quite understand your imagining that Democrats are anything like "extreme left" There are perhaps half a dozen legislators who lean slightly left. The rest are entrenched centrists and most fit the corporatist neo-liberal profile which is more right than left.

Warren is by no means a lefty, has no interest in social democracy and less in socialism which is the very definition of leftism. I'm not even sure Republicans are really all that "far right". They want good jobs with good pay too. They want medicine, education, and social security checks when they get old. They want a roof over their heads and they want to feel safe and secure in their own homes. The same things that everyone wants.

I'd say the primary difference between the two is that republicans believe that if business is left to its own devices it will create a healthy, wealthy economy that will bring prosperity to all.

Democrats on the other hand feel that business has been remiss in spreading the wealth around to the workers and protecting the environment. Thus it must be regulated heavily to bring about a healthy, wealthy economy that will bring prosperity to all.

You may judge for yourself which party has chosen the right path.

There is no viable third party in our future. There is no return to a simpler past. If we make the wrong choices now there may well be a very dismal future awaiting us. Joe Biden is the wrong choice for democrats just as Trump was the wrong choice for republicans.

Warren is actually the centrist you are looking for. Someone who can return the applecart to its upright position and gather what apples are still marketable and make cider from the rest. She's not looking to own the conservatives nor to veer the ship of state hard to port. She wants to help working Americans regardless of their party affiliation, religion, sexual preference, or skin color.

Not your cup of tea helping the downtrodden or raising anyone's wages, or providing healthcare, education or free lunches for schoolchildren as those would be extreme measures. Are you a proponent of churches and charities handling all that or are you a bootstrap kinda guy who thinks folks should just take care of themselves to keep your taxes to a bare minimum?

I've mentioned before that Biden will do nothing, he has no agenda, no plan, no platform. Low fat, low sugar, low sodium. Just plain oatmeal for me please! But he can beat Trump because Obama.

Most recent poll(ipsos i think) places the empty smelly suit well ahead of Warren, and even Sanders leading her by one point(21, 16 and 15% respectively. With a margin of error at 4 points, Warren and Sanders are essentially tied and Biden is ahead by somewhere between 2 and 10 points. Meaningless as far as I'm concerned because it leaves about half the voters unaccounted for, divided among the single digit candidates and no one at all.



_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#316946 - 10/19/19 05:17 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: perotista]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17403
Originally Posted By: perotista
I'm not ready to have the country move that far left in my lifetime, although it will happen sooner or later.
I have been waiting for it for nearly 40 years. What you dread, I've been pining for. Please, PLEASE let it happen in my lifetime.

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#316947 - 10/19/19 05:18 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: Greger]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 711
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
My political goal is to get a viable third party established to counter the extreme left and right politics of our two existing major parties.


And Senator Hatrack's goal is a return to Federalism. Neither is going to happen. I don't quite understand your imagining that Democrats are anything like "extreme left" There are perhaps half a dozen legislators who lean slightly left. The rest are entrenched centrists and most fit the corporatist neo-liberal profile which is more right than left.

Warren is by no means a lefty, has no interest in social democracy and less in socialism which is the very definition of leftism. I'm not even sure Republicans are really all that "far right". They want good jobs with good pay too. They want medicine, education, and social security checks when they get old. They want a roof over their heads and they want to feel safe and secure in their own homes. The same things that everyone wants.

I'd say the primary difference between the two is that republicans believe that if business is left to its own devices it will create a healthy, wealthy economy that will bring prosperity to all.

Democrats on the other hand feel that business has been remiss in spreading the wealth around to the workers and protecting the environment. Thus it must be regulated heavily to bring about a healthy, wealthy economy that will bring prosperity to all.

You may judge for yourself which party has chosen the right path.

There is no viable third party in our future. There is no return to a simpler past. If we make the wrong choices now there may well be a very dismal future awaiting us. Joe Biden is the wrong choice for democrats just as Trump was the wrong choice for republicans.

Warren is actually the centrist you are looking for. Someone who can return the applecart to its upright position and gather what apples are still marketable and make cider from the rest. She's not looking to own the conservatives nor to veer the ship of state hard to port. She wants to help working Americans regardless of their party affiliation, religion, sexual preference, or skin color.

Not your cup of tea helping the downtrodden or raising anyone's wages, or providing healthcare, education or free lunches for schoolchildren as those would be extreme measures. Are you a proponent of churches and charities handling all that or are you a bootstrap kinda guy who thinks folks should just take care of themselves to keep your taxes to a bare minimum?

I've mentioned before that Biden will do nothing, he has no agenda, no plan, no platform. Low fat, low sugar, low sodium. Just plain oatmeal for me please! But he can beat Trump because Obama.

Most recent poll(ipsos i think) places the empty smelly suit well ahead of Warren, and even Sanders leading her by one point(21, 16 and 15% respectively. With a margin of error at 4 points, Warren and Sanders are essentially tied and Biden is ahead by somewhere between 2 and 10 points. Meaningless as far as I'm concerned because it leaves about half the voters unaccounted for, divided among the single digit candidates and no one at all.





Here, I like going by RCP averages.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls...ation-6730.html

If you think Warren is a centrist, that just shows me how far left you are. Those of the far left or far right for that matter always think they're mainstream. More or less in the middle. Now I think the rise in independents from 30% in 2006 up to 40% today shows that finally folks are getting tired of the constant movement left and right by our two major parties. There comes a point in time when one or some say, that's far enough, goodbye. Perhaps independent is the wrong word, swing voters may be more apt. Those who aren't hog tied to either party. Free thinkers more or less. Those who aren't ideologues as members of both major parties have become.

Yes, I long for the past when the two parties would work together via compromise, playing the game of give and take. Instead what we have today is anything proposed by Democrats the Republicans are automatically against, anything proposed by a Republican, the Democrats automatically are against. Merits of the proposal doesn't matter, just who proposed it.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#316952 - 10/19/19 05:50 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: perotista]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17403
Perotista, while I agree with your methodology regarding polls, and many of your sentiments regarding various topics, I diverge on your final points. I agree with Greger that Warren is more of a centrist than you believe or that she is playing. I, too, "long for the past when the two parties would work together via compromise".

But, when you say, "anything proposed by Democrats the Republicans are automatically against, anything proposed by a Republican, the Democrats automatically are against. Merits of the proposal doesn't matter, just who proposed it." You go too far, and that is where I think your thinking gets muddled. Democrats, most especially Obama, tried to incorporate Republican ideas for two solid years, and far longer (too long, in my view) on specific issues, such as immigration. That failed, not because of the ideas (see, ACA, immigration), but because of intransigent, intractable resistance (See, Merrick Garland). Democratic resistance has not come because of ideology, but the utter vacuous nature of Republican proposals.

I'll issue you a friendly challenge: name a Republican proposal that a) has merit, and b) has been rejected out-of-hand by Democrats. I mean this earnestly. Let's get beyond positions and platitudes and get to substance.

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#316954 - 10/19/19 05:58 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: perotista]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17040
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Now I think the rise in independents from 30% in 2006 up to 40% today shows that finally folks are getting tired of the constant movement left and right by our two major parties.

And I think it's anger at do nothing centrists of both parties. The neocons and the neolibs, fighting tooth and nail to get more money into the pockets of the wealthy and to become wealthy themselves for doing it. While a majority of Americans become buried in debt as prices rise and wages don't.

Quote:
If you think Warren is a centrist, that just shows me how far left you are.


And that statement right there tells me just how far right you are.

Warren is a former Republican. An expert in bankruptcy law who recognizes that a few changes need to be made or we are headed for trouble.

That's the radical left in your eyes, a former Republican. You seem to insist that no Democrat is allowed to make any changes, raise any taxes, or impose any regulations as that would be a radical leftist agenda. When Republicans propose something...anything...that might actually help all Americans rather than a favored few I think you'd see Democrats jump right on board with it.

Perhaps you'd like to compose a list of Republican proposals that do just that. It should be easy.

Now take a look at Democratic proposals and legislation...pretty radical Sh*t, right? Or too radical for a rightwinger like yourself to support.
Democratic bills passed in the house but DOA as Grim Reaper McConnell strikes them down
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#316956 - 10/19/19 06:05 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17403
Great minds, Greger. grin

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#316957 - 10/19/19 06:14 PM Re: Where have all the conservatives gone? [Re: Greger]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17040
Loc: Florida
Oh...and maybe you'd like to ask a real lefty, our colleague, Chunkstyle, stands ready to denounce her as a former Republican who probably hasn't changed her stripes and whose policy proposals don't go far enough or are pure bluster to win an election which will be followed by more neoliberal policies by centrist Democrats.

He'll vote third party too if she gets the nod, but likely not for the same candidate as you, Pero.
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Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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