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#316989 - 10/20/19 12:24 PM Re: What is a far leftist, anyway? [Re: Ujest Shurly]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10285
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Do we have any national heroes that were far to the right?
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#316990 - 10/20/19 12:42 PM Re: What is a far leftist, anyway? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10285
Loc: One of the Mexicos
It seems to me that the term “far-leftism” is a strawboogeyman whose main purpose is to stimulate the amygdalae of so-called conservatives.

_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#316991 - 10/20/19 03:01 PM Re: What is a far leftist, anyway? [Re: logtroll]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
This looks difficult to answer as there is no consensus of what is left.
The break with Fuedalism and monarchy during the French Revolution is a good example of attempting a more horizontal alignment of society.
Ditto the October Revolution, Spanish Civil war between monarchists, Catholics monarchist for hierarchy and anarchists, Republicans and marxists on the other.
For me it’s a matter of which ordering you prefer. Some are content with class hierarchy some prefer solidarity.
Today’s Neoliberals very much prefer market solutions over direct government involvement. Cool with social equality, much the opposite on economics and class.
Conservatives seems to have come out of the closet and shown themselves to be the racists they were suspected of being. In favor of racial and economic hierarchies with a veneer of values and traditions masking the core.
Labor unions should be more left but are often headed by reactionary conservatives. Some, not all.
Libertarians are the hippies of conservatives. Libertarianism seems to be a stepping stone to many ethnofascists.
Anarchists, socialists, and communists have been mainly absent from the scene since the Purges of the 50’s and 70’s and are only now starting to get it together but still weak politically though their ideas have broad general support.
Far left? Does it really exist in the states? Kinda reminds me of the ‘what left’ thread from several months ago.
If you think Warrens left I’d say your wrong. She’s championing some left proposals so that’s cool.
Sanders is running a left campaign and his politics are mild left.
Trump is the fascists that republicans were suspected to be.




Edited by chunkstyle (10/20/19 03:03 PM)

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#316992 - 10/20/19 03:46 PM Re: What is a far leftist, anyway? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17064
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Far left? Does it really exist in the states?


Nope. If it did we'd be the ones stockpiling weapons.
_________________________
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#316995 - 10/20/19 04:39 PM Re: What is a far leftist, anyway? [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10285
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Nearest fringe group of any kind that I can think of that would quality as far-leftists would be antifa - and I think their sole issue to to challenge far-right "fascists" with physical confrontation and sometimes violence. Funny thing is that they would go away if their were no fascists to confront. The fascists they oppose will only go away if they lose their racist white nationalist ideologies.

In any case, there is no active leftist political faction that antifa is connected with (that I know of).
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#316996 - 10/20/19 04:44 PM Re: What is a far leftist, anyway? [Re: perotista]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: perotista


Let me put it this way, I've been comfortable with every president in my lifetime being president. Trump I'm not and if Warren or Sanders became president, I wouldn't be comfortable with them either. So in my book of comfortability, those two are on the same page as Trump.



How odd, because for me...and you and I are almost in the same age group, a Warren presidency feels like it would almost put us back to where we were around the time of the late New Deal era. I grew up in the tail end of that, so that is why I like Warren.

For the record I view the New Deal Era as the period between 1932 and 1980, because a lot of the gains and stability we encountered lasted until 1980, when the Right began its Powell Memo driven systematic dismantling of it.

Suddenly I began to hear talk of how evil the government was, how incompetent...who were these radical sounding people? Reagan was an actor...what the Hell was he doing telling us the government sucked so badly? After all, he had no problem destroying the lives of thousands when he was president of the Screen Actors Guild, sitting up there in front of HUAC.

Sure, Communism was a rotten system, but when those people JOINED, it was on the heels of a total COLLAPSE of capitalism, for God's sakes.
It was the Great Depression and almost a THIRD of the workforce had lost everything they had!

They didn't want to destroy America, they thought a new idea might help them, that's all...and a lot of these people left Communism behind when they observed the Cold War anyway.

Look at Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz, for instance. Those two dabbled in the Communist ideology during the Great Depression. Did they not become a couple of the biggest patriots in the television industry at the time?
I never even saw a HINT of any "communist indoctrination" coming from Desilu Productions, unless one counts "Star Trek" as indoctrination.

Nope sorry...from where I sit this whole era feels like a repeat of the 1950's Red Scare period all over again.
It was a rotten thing to do back then, and it's a rotten thing to do now.

PS: It's almost too bad that chickenhawk John Wayne did NOT haul off and punch Dalton Trumbo when Trumbo dared him to.
It might have ended the entire nasty piece of business right then.
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#316997 - 10/20/19 04:47 PM Re: What is a far leftist, anyway? [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Nearest fringe group of any kind that I can think of that would quality as far-leftists would be antifa - and I think their sole issue to to challenge far-right "fascists" with physical confrontation and sometimes violence. Funny thing is that they would go away if their were no fascists to confront. The fascists they oppose will only go away if they lose their racist white nationalist ideologies.

In any case, there is no active leftist political faction that antifa is connected with (that I know of).


And truth be told, Antifa is probably the best recruiting tool the far Right could have ever dreamed of. I view these pitched street battles between the two groups as Theater of the Absurd.
Both groups are pathetic and have not accomplished anything, except to spread hate and discontent around.

And neither group has the ability to practice leadership anyway, which makes it even more absurd.
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#316998 - 10/20/19 05:11 PM Re: What is a far leftist, anyway? [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Do we have any national heroes that were far to the right?


Not FAR Right, no.
Eisenhower was of course part of the racism of the time but it was an institutionalized bit of business back then, so no one ever even considered the human tragedy of things like Operation Wetback.
And I honestly do not believe a lot of people outside the Old Deep South realized just how bad treatment of blacks was down there unless they visited.

But all that aside, I think Eisenhower was one of the good conservative leaders, and as much as Goldwater alarmed and irritated me, it's clear that he had a good heart as well.

No, I do not believe in FAR anything, far Right or far Left.
We need to make American society more thoughtful, more mindful, more educated and we need to remake a kinder and more generous internal culture, one which nurtures and protects, and invests in future generations.
But most of all, we must restore stability, upward mobility, statecraft, reinvestment in ourselves.
If we do that, a lot of our other issues will gradually retreat in scale, because most of our most troubling issues are driven largely by despair.

Fringe ideologies tend to EXPLOIT that sense of despair.
That is not the way to transform any society.
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#316999 - 10/20/19 06:00 PM Re: What is a far leftist, anyway? [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Far left? Does it really exist in the states?


Nope. If it did we'd be the ones stockpiling weapons.



BINGO!
I have to agree with that observation wholeheartedly!

If, say perhaps, the Weather Underground decided to branch off and away from their largely anti-Vietnam stance and go off into other causes. If the Students for a Democratic Society wanted to diversify, if the Symbionese Liberation Army wanted to enhance their credibility...yes I think we would wind up seeing something of a negative reaction.

The thing is, the far Left only winds up with the opportunity to DO that when the oligarchs become so sloppy that even their own praetors turn on them. Things have to get pretty bad for the old guard to turn that cynical.

I like to think that the ordinary Left would much rather SELL their ideas and watch them catch fire in people's hearts, rather than engage in some kind of "war".
Seeing families teaching their kids these values is what stirs the heart of a liberal.

Be kind and open to people who look different, or who come from other cultures and racial backgrounds. Be generous and share with the less fortunate, be a good steward of our Earth. Be real about equality with women and the gay community. Be willing to pursue diplomacy rather than militaristic solutions to all issues.
Do all one can to foster education in our communities.


Stuff like that. Seeing that sort of thing take hold makes a liberal feel patriotic.
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#317001 - 10/20/19 07:11 PM Re: What is a far leftist, anyway? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 722
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: perotista


Let me put it this way, I've been comfortable with every president in my lifetime being president. Trump I'm not and if Warren or Sanders became president, I wouldn't be comfortable with them either. So in my book of comfortability, those two are on the same page as Trump.



How odd, because for me...and you and I are almost in the same age group, a Warren presidency feels like it would almost put us back to where we were around the time of the late New Deal era. I grew up in the tail end of that, so that is why I like Warren.

For the record I view the New Deal Era as the period between 1932 and 1980, because a lot of the gains and stability we encountered lasted until 1980, when the Right began its Powell Memo driven systematic dismantling of it.

Suddenly I began to hear talk of how evil the government was, how incompetent...who were these radical sounding people? Reagan was an actor...what the Hell was he doing telling us the government sucked so badly? After all, he had no problem destroying the lives of thousands when he was president of the Screen Actors Guild, sitting up there in front of HUAC.

Sure, Communism was a rotten system, but when those people JOINED, it was on the heels of a total COLLAPSE of capitalism, for God's sakes.
It was the Great Depression and almost a THIRD of the workforce had lost everything they had!

They didn't want to destroy America, they thought a new idea might help them, that's all...and a lot of these people left Communism behind when they observed the Cold War anyway.

Look at Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz, for instance. Those two dabbled in the Communist ideology during the Great Depression. Did they not become a couple of the biggest patriots in the television industry at the time?
I never even saw a HINT of any "communist indoctrination" coming from Desilu Productions, unless one counts "Star Trek" as indoctrination.

Nope sorry...from where I sit this whole era feels like a repeat of the 1950's Red Scare period all over again.
It was a rotten thing to do back then, and it's a rotten thing to do now.

PS: It's almost too bad that chickenhawk John Wayne did NOT haul off and punch Dalton Trumbo when Trumbo dared him to.
It might have ended the entire nasty piece of business right then.


Close to the same age, very possible. But I would wager our experiences differ quite a lot. I was born and raised on a farm. Then drafted into the Army which I made a career out of retiring from active duty after 21 years. Then spent my next 26 years working for the Army as a Department of the Army Civilian. That was sort of a sheltered life as it kept me away from civilians. Almost all my friends these days are retired military or worked for the military in some sense.

I still live in the country with a bunch of retired military living around me, although its not a farm anymore. I have very few hot button issues, basically three. Finding a candidate that is pro defense, one who is pro 2nd Amendment and one who just might do something about our national debt. On this last one, both major parties are utter failures, both living only for today or until the next election not giving a darn about any future generation.

Looking at the discussions, current topics, you won't see me on most of them. I don't care about the public option, medicare for all, whether or not Trump is impeached, the auto industry, unions and strikes, Trump, Biden and the Ukraine. Trump's tax returns, far as I'm concern whether he releases them or not is up to him. I'll say that much, then let the subject be.

Now the hyper partisanship and polarization bothers me a lot as I stated from time to time. It has turned me against both major parties as I assume with the growth in the number of independents, swing voters from 30 to 40% it has turned them off also.

What I'm looking for in 2020 is someone who can provide steady, reliable leadership along fixing some of our existing problems. Not someone who will push a bunch of new programs while ignoring the problems we already have.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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