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#317496 - 10/29/19 05:59 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15791
Loc: Florida
"We are better than this!"

No we aren't.
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#317497 - 10/29/19 06:26 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15791
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Well, I don't know how to respond.

If I do, I'm hijacking a thread again.

O.K., I'll hijack away.


Don't worry...I'm a moderator. I'll bail you out if the others complain. We could start another thread...that's how it's supposed to work.
_________________________
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#317498 - 10/29/19 06:30 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: logtroll]
chunkstyle Online   content
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1951
“Our system, a for-profit healthcare system, has been rejected by the rest of the developed world. The reason is simple, a for-profit healthcare system costs much more, is not as good as a no-profit healthcare system, and EVERYBODY get covered”

“All that being said its just not gonna happen. “

“All that being said I think there are enough studies to absolutely prove the economical, and medical, value of a non-profit system.”

“ I think most people can support a non-profit healthcare system if presented correctly and doesn't threaten the healthcare of people who can currently afford it. “

“I hate to throw this in but it sounds a bit like arguments over gun control!”

I have to admit, I’m not sure what your saying beyond government should regulate to control costs and don’t upset people who can afford healthcare?

Are you rejecting Medicare for all? It seems contradictory since it meets with some of your wish list. If it doesn’t could you explain how?

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#317503 - 10/29/19 09:18 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: logtroll]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2647
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I am not rejecting anything. I am simply saying that it would be nice if everybody backed off a little bit and considered what is actually possible. Going directly, for instance, to single payer will pass nothing and the only thing that results is that, if that was your choice, you get to whine - that's about it. Same with all the other whiz bang solutions based on, basically, little or nothing but envy for the nations that have actually put some kind of taxpayer supported healthcare for all in place.

I did indicate I didn't want to upset people who can afford healthcare. That was wrong. When I look at all the people sitting behind Jackass trump I doubt that all of those can actually afford all that much. I was actually suggesting that those who really like the current for-profit healthcare are already upset and need serious education. We have had a national problem for a very long time. We have decided that there is no difference between perception and reality and perception is the rule. I am not sure that isn't the basis for our messes. Have no solution but its not a real good thing.

Not all of the existing solutions are the same, incidentally. Switzerland, for instance, has a rather complex system but EVERYBODY has healthcare! (the interesting thing about that one is that the insurance companies now own most of the hospitals). Had a high school student from Switzerland here and both his parents were doctors. He as highly amused at the mess we have for healthcare (and didn't even vaguely show any envy)

I guess what I am saying is that it seems to me that a lot of people have decided on 'their' plan as the right one and if they don't get their way they are simply not going to vote because that's the way it is. It also seems, to me, that we are a nation of over 300 MILLION people! This is not a little village where folks can actually all sit down and make decisions - that is simply not gonna happen. What we have is one of them things that need to be discussed, investigated, studied, and thoughts express (as thoughts) and some kind of agreement made. Instead, again, it seems to me that what we are actually doing is creating a bunch of outlying communities of true believers who absolutely refuse to agree, or even discuss anything other than "their" plan. That will not work <sigh>

Right now we have one rule; "My way or the highway". When you have 300 million citizens with that same attitude.......................

Oh, we may not be better than this but we sure as hell could be.............

Its too bad the congress can't setup a committee to discuss. It could have a rule that can remove anybody who expresses ideas as the only way to go. That means that folks with the only way to go get tagged. If nothing else it just may end up explaining a lot and, just possibly, open a few minds. Right now, I think, we have a congress wherein each member has THE solution and that's the way it is. They can deny all they want but that is the way they behave. Get rid of that stuff and we could probably actually make headway on stuff. We have done it before and it would be nice if we could do it again. The congress could start by their seating. Each seat would have an alternating party so that they would have to talk to one another if they wanted to or not (if nothing else that would certainly amuse)

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#317504 - 10/29/19 11:48 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Online   content
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1951
I'm really not sure what your beefing about JGW.

There is a proposal out there right now that a couple of candidates are running on as a plank in their campaign. The existing plan has been spelled out and scored by economists.

We get to decide weather or not we will vote for those candidates.

A bill generally gets discussed in committees of the house and senate do they not? There's a process already in place for considering legislation isn't there, or am I mistaken?

Testimony is heard by 'experts'. Usually lobbyists but no plan is perfect.

What do you think is the differences between single payer option and MFA? Any?

Just curious.


Edited by chunkstyle (10/29/19 11:49 PM)

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#317512 - 10/30/19 02:11 AM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17185
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
For some reason this keeps returning to s Warren v. Sanders thing.
Not really. Now it's mostly a Biden-Warren thing. What’s Behind Elizabeth Warren’s Rise In The Polls? (FiveThirtyEight). My friend, you are stuck on this either-or paradigm and purity mantra. Warren is gonna win it all because she scratches a variety of itches. She has energy, populism, moderate AND liberal credentials, and she know what she is doing. Yes she has baggage, as everyone does, but she overcomes it with enthusiasm.

Wall Street and the GOP will go all in to stop her, but they won't succeed. And, she'll have coattails. I recognize you don't understand her. I get that you think she's too conventional, just as friend Perotista thinks she's too liberal. You're both wrong, I'm afraid. What NEEDS to happen is removal of the Republican roadblock to honor, progress, rationality and patriotism. Whoever the Democratic nominee is, you best both vote for her or you are putting ego and pride above national interest, and that is no exaggeration. It's too urgent for the niceties y'all espouse. It's not the time for third party theatrics. We're in deep s***. Right [censored] now. Right the ship now, set a course tomorrow.

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#317514 - 10/30/19 04:44 AM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8957
Loc: North San Diego County
ACA already has similar costs to Single-Payer, if we fix a few broken parts. Instead of raising taxes (but still keeping them progressive), ACA plus Medicare expansion subsidizes poor and working class people. Functionally, these are identical!

What upsets a lot of people is that for-profit insurance and drug companies are making a lot of profits off ACA. ACA lets insurance companies make 20%, instead of the 30-35% they used to make. Medicare has about 5% overhead, and it does that by paying doctors and hospitals less than they want. So if we just add a public option to ACA that pays doctors and hospitals Medicare rates, it has to cost about 15% less for the same ACA-compliant plan. ACA customers would flock to it, since it costs 15% less than other plans. Employers would too: They have to be ACA compliant when they supply insurance to employees, but they would LOVE to do that for 15% less.

All we need to do then, is to fix Medicare expansion so it's top income limit is equal to ACA's bottom limit, and to jack the uncovered penalty way up to the cost of coverage with the public option. Oh, and get rid of Trump's shitty not-real-insurance policies.

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#317523 - 10/30/19 11:13 AM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Online   content
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1951
The question was about single payer vs. Medicare For All, or so I thought.
The MFA proposal is not the same as what you just proposed.
The results in savings would not be the same.
Coverage would not be the same.
I’m not sure you know what the differences are between MFA and single payer.

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#317525 - 10/30/19 12:33 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: chunkstyle]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9593
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
The question was about single payer vs. Medicare For All, or so I thought.

Actually, that question was what I had right after the last debate where healthcare got contentious. So I did some research to try and figure out what the arguments were. What I learned was what was stated in the opening post:
Quote:
Public option = choice of government provided healthcare or private insurance

Medicare for All = no choice but government provided healthcare

I suppose the MFA strategy is that for it to work there needs to be the entire population paying into it. I expect that given enough time the public option would easily become preferred by enough to be viable.

The bugaboo would be in the transition.

That is what the candidates were debating.

I don’t know of any definitive descriptions of MFA vs single-payer - near as I can tell, MFA is single payer.
_________________________
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#317527 - 10/30/19 01:18 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: logtroll]
chunkstyle Online   content
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1951
Yeah, your right.
Now even I’m doing it and I was involved in the state project having the same semantic problems. There’s running confusion on both sides as to what one another means when talking about this subject.

Gets even worse when you throw in ‘government run’, socialized, nationalized, etc...

Single payer is one entity bill paying. Doesn’t always mean guvmint.

Nationalized means guvmint owning and running hospitals, staffing and equipping them, etc.,. Think UK’s NHS,


Socialized could be any that has democratized healthcare giving people more control over how it’s organized and paid for.

Privatized is what we got. It costs the most money while delivering on the ability to pay.

Etc...

That is why I’ve been asking what people think of ‘single payer’ and how it would be different from MFA.

Sorry for my confusion Logs. Thanks for the correction.

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