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#317528 - 10/30/19 01:58 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: chunkstyle]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10329
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Isn't there a Biblical story about the "confusion of tongues"?

What I see are all of the Dem candidates wanting some form of universal public healthcare system. Everybody gets covered (it's a right) and it costs the least amount of money possible.

What I see Reeps prioritizing is that private companies get to control and profit from healthcare - even if it is against their best interests.

The private insurance and healhcare providers know they have an extremely profitable racket and that if people only understood the fundamentals of it they would lose their goldmine. So they work very diligently to keep the discussion away from the facts and the spotlight on big bad government, loss of choice, and raising taxes.

The general populace is so conditioned to fear and loathe these things, and so disinclined to put in the effort to do a rational evaluation of the facts, that chaos reigns and the profiteers get ever richer.

Political candidates find themselves in the position of trying to navigate a field of mis- and disinformation landmines when they try to sell the concept of universal publicly funded and managed healthcare, and their message gets so muddled that it becomes even harder to communicate it. It's really hard to compete at marketing the truth in a world of dishonest greedy salesmen, and lazy gullible consumers.

There's the problem defined in simple terms.

Somebody else can tell us what the solution is... sick
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#317535 - 10/30/19 04:50 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: logtroll]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Originally Posted By: logtroll


The private insurance and healhcare providers know they have an extremely profitable racket and that if people only understood the fundamentals of it they would lose their goldmine. So they work very diligently to keep the discussion away from the facts and the spotlight on big bad government, loss of choice, and raising taxes.


Political candidates find themselves in the position of trying to navigate a field of mis- and disinformation landmines when they try to sell the concept of universal publicly funded and managed healthcare, and their message gets so muddled that it becomes even harder to communicate it. It's really hard to compete at marketing the truth in a world of dishonest greedy salesmen, and lazy gullible consumers.

There's the problem defined in simple terms.

Somebody else can tell us what the solution is... sick


Well
Isn’t that the story of politics? Seriously, this has always been the case of the rules vs. the rulers.
One problem is communicating simply and taking time to explain it. Supposedly Eleanor gave that advice to Kennedy, according to Vidal.
If you’ve got to pull out a flow chart and pointer stick then maybe your plan is to complicated and ineffectual in the first place. Like the bank examiner said, the clue to criminal behavior is overly complicated language and structures.
Kinda the same way in design, story telling, engineering, financial loans, Kamala Harris financial aide plan, etc..
There’s another way you can shut down arguments. You can shut them down by simply boycotting the person making them.

I’ll leave it to others to wonder which candidate is being boycotted In the mainstream media.
(Hint: the only candidate who’s proposed a health care plan.)


Edited by chunkstyle (10/30/19 04:52 PM)

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#317536 - 10/30/19 05:13 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: logtroll]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3599
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Single payer is, basically, SINGLE PAYER! This normally means that every individual tax payer gets to pay for single payer. Basically the payer is the government who, in turn, gets the money from the taxpayer. Medicare for all confuses me. Both my wife and myself are on Medicare. We also get to pay for medigap insurance which is not cheap (we use the aarp plan with no deductables). My wife tells me that the price goes up every year and the increase is usually just barely covered by SS increases.

What I don't know if the medicare for all is completely free or is handled the same as we already on medicare get to pay right now for medigap insurance. If one is using the Bernie MFA plan we are talking, basically, about single payer as he is including everything but the kitchen sink in the coverage so I am not even sure why he bothers with medicare at all. I suspect that the different candidates that are offering MFA (medicare for all) each has a slightly different plan.

Anyway, if its all going to be covered by taxes then, we are talking about millions of people and the increase will be millions times at least 1000.00 plus the basic cost of medicare itself. What I really find interesting is that the congress passed a law that denies medicare the ability to even talk to the drug companies about their prices. As far as I can tell nobody has been able to do anything about that law. So, if gov takes over healthcare there are some serious questions as to how its going to be handled, what the rules are going to be, how much regulation will be put in place to control prices, etc. Under Trump, for instance, one of the first things he did was to release any controls on healthcare equipment plus some other stuff.

Since I am on medicare AND the VA I haven't spent much time looking at this stuff as it doesn't really concern me. I have noted, however, that there is little or no real facts about the entire thing. Just a bunch of promises from candidates who, even if they win, are not going to have the money available to actually do all the stuff they are 'promising'.

I have often wondered, however, what the general costs of medicare, VA, and for-profit healthcare are. I have searched on this one and, apparently, these costs are not readily available. My suspicion is that the VA does a better job, fiscally, than either medicare or for-profit. but base that on absolutely nothing. I have also not noted that any democratic candidates have offered VA coverage for everybody. Seems to me that may be the cheapest way to go.

Just wondering.................

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#317537 - 10/30/19 05:31 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17429
Most people don't realize that 64% of healthcare costs are already borne by the government. This comes in the form of Medicare, Medicaid, VA, military, public health, tribal health, and must-treat policies.
Quote:
Medicare plays a major role in the health care system, accounting for 20 percent of total national health spending in 2017, 30 percent of spending on retail sales of prescription drugs, 25 percent of spending on hospital care, and 23 percent of spending on physician services.
CMS
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#317547 - 10/30/19 07:56 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: logtroll]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3599
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
In theory, when Obamacare started there were several things which were supposed to happen. I suspect most of those things were trashed. I do know, however, that obamacare was starting to reduce the increasing expense of healthcare. It was also, in theory, building a database of procedures and the outcomes of those procedures so that there could be a list of what worked and what did not. Have no idea what happened to that one. Then there was supposed to be a standardization of medical/healthcare software - I have no idea what happened to those things either. My suspicion is that all these sorts of things got trashed as they assaulted the stone cold assault of the for-profit side of healthcare.

Anyway, one can only wonder if any of this stuff is covered in any of the healthcare promised by Democratic candidates.

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#317549 - 10/30/19 08:06 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10347
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
I’m not sure you know what the differences are between MFA and single payer.


I know exactly what the differences between MFA and single payer are, and I know every different aspect of Medicare payments and reimbursements. I have Medicare and I pay about $635 per month when you count my drug copays. My employee plan I had while working capped out at $2500 per year, so it was a lot better...for me.

I think there are as many MFA plans as there are candidates and groups proposing it. That's the problem. We have everything from people buying in at about the same cost as commercial policies, to totally tax funded with different tax rates for retirees and working people.

What I do know is that we will never actually get anything if we try to make a radical change that destroys the insurance business and nationalizes Big Pharma. So lets not bother beating our heads against that brick wall. Adding a public option to ACA will be about 100 times easier, and has a decent chance of coming to pass. It does not force anybody to change anything. They will do so voluntarily because it would deliver the same ACA-compliant care for 15% less than the commercial ACA-compliant plans. It accomplishes the same thing! It just makes it easy because saving money is a lot more acceptable to the vast majority of US citizens of any political persuasion. Even conservative Republicans have ACA-compliant policies and would be interested in switching to a policy that delivered the same care for 15% less.

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#317552 - 10/30/19 09:14 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
I’m not sure you know what the differences are between MFA and single payer.


I know exactly what the differences between MFA and single payer are, and I know every different aspect of Medicare payments and reimbursements. I have Medicare and I pay about $635 per month when you count my drug copays. My employee plan I had while working capped out at $2500 per year, so it was a lot better...for me.



From Senate Bill S.1129 Medicare For All Act 2019:

SEC. 202. No cost-sharing.

(a) In general.—The Secretary shall ensure that no cost-sharing, including deductibles, coinsurance, copayments, or similar charges, be imposed on an individual for any benefits provided under this Act, except as described in subsection (b).

(b) Exceptions.—The Secretary may set a cost-sharing schedule for prescription drugs and biological products—

(1) provided that—

(A) such schedule is evidence-based and encourages the use of generic drugs;

(B) such cost-sharing does not apply to preventive drugs;

(C) such cost-sharing does not exceed $200 annually per individual, adjusted annually for inflation; and

(D) such cost-sharing is not imposed on individuals with a household income equal to or below 200 percent of the poverty line for a family of the size involved;...

Naw, I don't think you do know what your talking about.

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#317553 - 10/30/19 09:18 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
[quote]

I think there are as many MFA plans as there are candidates and groups proposing it. That's the problem. We have everything from people buying in at about the same cost as commercial policies, to totally tax funded with different tax rates for retirees and working people.



Please provide me with other candidates Medicare For All plans if you would PIA. Senate or Congressional bill numbers would be helpful.

As far as I know the only Medicare For All plan is the one Sanders has introduced. I could be wrong though.

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#317554 - 10/30/19 09:25 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Originally Posted By: jgw
Medicare for all confuses me. Both my wife and myself are on Medicare. We also get to pay for medigap insurance which is not cheap (we use the aarp plan with no deductables). My wife tells me that the price goes up every year and the increase is usually just barely covered by SS increases.


Here's Senate Bill S.1129 that you can read. You don't have to take my word for it. I would think someone having been involved in multi-employee companies would have no trouble understanding the proposals described in this bill.

I posted the link for the plan to pay for it earlier.

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#317555 - 10/30/19 09:33 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Originally Posted By: jgw


Since I am on medicare AND the VA I haven't spent much time looking at this stuff as it doesn't really concern me. I have noted, however, that there is little or no real facts about the entire thing. Just a bunch of promises from candidates who, even if they win, are not going to have the money available to actually do all the stuff they are 'promising'.



Whoops. Ignore my earlier post JGW. Your just trolling then?

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