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#317464 - 10/28/19 02:15 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Well golly Gregor,

I'm not asking you to care about who or wether I vote for. Just addressing PIA's question.

You'll have to cut me some slack when I tell you that your critique of Sanders plan is lacking in specifics when you were posting up arguments of non-existent positions of other candidates.

But again, since you raised the issue:
OPTIONS TO FINANCE MEDICARE FOR ALL

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#317465 - 10/28/19 02:16 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: logtroll]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
FFS

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#317467 - 10/28/19 03:58 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: chunkstyle]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10331
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Sounds like Bernie's pitch... good stuff, and solid, too.

I think what Warren is hung up on is that a basic premise for MfA is that there will be a trade of no more premiums for a new healthcare tax as the primary funding method.

The key element is that the new tax will be less than the old premiums for most people. Even Bernie doesn't say it bluntly, but at least he says it.

The danger they face is the loud and dishonest political spin machine that will go from 1000 RPMs to 10,000 RPMs when the words "new tax" are uttered, and the gullibility and low brane-wattage of the majority of the electorate when it comes to simple arithmetic.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#317468 - 10/28/19 05:10 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: logtroll]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Perhaps, Logtroll.

But since all we can do is speculate on what Warren may or may not have in her heart, There's only one candidate that has put forward a clear proposal and the rest is speculation.
Or maybe she is going to support Sanders bill if she were to become the president. Dunno.

It's a choice between preserving a profit motive based system who's very DNA means that profits will be increased by any means necessary vs. one of public goods and services.

Public goods and services is a scary concept until it isn't anymore. I think it's no longer as scary as it used to be. Most people have begun to question the rot at the top that has been sustained for decades now and calling B.S. to those rationales for blunting progressive progress.

Now the rot at the top of the Democratic party.... That's a tougher nut to crack as history has shown. Every once in a while though..

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#317474 - 10/28/19 09:48 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Online   content


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17277
Loc: Florida
I was wrong about Warren, I kept seeing the phrase "all in with Medicare for all" and got it in my head that she...anyway, what that phrase means is that she is all in with Bernie's plan. I don't care a lot about what the candidates are promising. It's all pure bullshite and nothing but political wishlists. The grits aint really gonna hit the pan until Donald Trump has an opponent.

Biden is most likely going to be that opponent. If you go by the numbers. But a long while back I spotted a trend that could get Warren, a progressive, the nomination. I'm not any particular fan of Senator Warren. I don't know all that much about her. I just think there's an invisible leftish trend that will get her the nomination.
I don't think it is leftish enough to nominate Bernie though.

It depends entirely on how many lefties vote in the primaries. I think there's going to be an uptick because Trump Rage is a thing.
Enough of an uptick to get a progressive nominated.
But not enough of an uptick to get Bernie nominated.

Warren will be viewed as the candidate in the center.

If there is anything the democratic party can be counted on to do, it is to head directly towards the center. Warren will get the nomination.

It's not about the politics to me. Any progressive candidate will do.

Waaaay farther back, I called the 2020 election for the democrats. The scales tipped on that when Trump attacked AOC and her squad. He made the election about race.

Early on in this thread I predicted how the insurance problem will be solved. The ACA will be repackaged and resold and the the enrollment age in Medicare will be lowered.

You keep telling me what should happen. But I keep tellin' you what's gonna happen.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#317484 - 10/29/19 01:33 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
For some reason this keeps returning to s Warren v. Sanders thing.
I get it Gregor. You prefer Warren over Sanders.
There’s a couple things to keep in mind though. They may have similar ideas on issues such as health care but there politics are very different.
Warrens running a campaign much the same as Clinton’s. Her base is pretty much the same constituents. She has less baggage but is still running a lanyard people campaign.
Very vertical.
Sanders constituents are very different. Encompassing more working class, younger voters, etc. He has a hard core following that closely resembles Trumps base of support.
You don’t know how that type of support would have faired due to the corruption of the primaries.
We do know how the Clinton coalition did. Warren may do better with a antitrump bump but we also know how Trumps approvals went after Mueller’s imvestigation finished. They went up and his base was energized. That’s a handicap for the opposition running into the general. Over half the country sees both sides are doing the same thing in the Ukraine. It’s hypocrisy and they know it.
Your anti-Trump bump may not be enough.
May wind up being who’s base turns out more. I see Trump having the advantage with the Ukraine theatre.
Which means single payer option vs. universal healthcare is moot.


Edited by chunkstyle (10/29/19 01:34 PM)

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#317489 - 10/29/19 02:45 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Online   content


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17277
Loc: Florida
Quote:
For some reason this keeps returning to s Warren v. Sanders thing.
I get it Gregor. You prefer Warren over Sanders.


Nope. I literally don't give a flying feck at a rolling donut which of those two gets elected. As long as it's a progressive candidate of some sort.

But I simply don't see a path to the Whitehouse for Sanders. Perhaps you could spell out how you think he's going to get the nomination? Tell me of this path you see to a President Bernie Sanders as I have shown you why I think Warren has some small chance of getting the nomination and winning against Trump..

Both want to implement Medicare For All. Both will likely have to compromise if elected.

Quote:
Sanders constituents are very different. Encompassing more working class, younger voters, etc. He has a hard core following that closely resembles Trumps base of support.
You don’t know how that type of support would have faired due to the corruption of the primaries.


The only "corruption" of the primaries is who gets out and votes. If Bernie's millions of dedicated fans vote in the primaries he will win. If they sit on their hands and let the Democrats decide he will lose.

It's really just that simple.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#317491 - 10/29/19 03:50 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Well, I don't know how to respond.

If I do, I'm hijacking a thread again.

O.K., I'll hijack away.

I assume your not for Sanders on account of your recurring 'he's not going to win you know? you know that don't you" hey chunks, Sanders isn't going to win..." Sure. O.K. Why would I want to argue with somebody who's made up their mind? Your entitled to your opinion.

I'm meeting you on your ground and seeing a problem with a Warren candidacy, should she manage to prevail. Way to early to call it but your happy too? O.K. fine. I think it's early.

Both want medicare for all. So then it goes to past performances because, unlike stocks, they tend to be predictive behavior.

Warren's been a republican on the side of capital. Her daughter is CEO of a for profit health insurance company. They are already willing to pull off corruption in aide of endorsements. Not a good sign. She's willing to compromise her 'ethics'. She's going the well worn path of talking from the left in the primary, like Obama, and the bones and stones don't look much different of her going on to govern from the right.

So as it relates to the thread's topic, no, I'm not convinced that she would carry out a medicare for all plan as Sanders bill is calling for.

I don't see Sanders cut from that same sell out cloth. His career speaks for itself.

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#317492 - 10/29/19 04:08 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: logtroll]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
But getting back to the subject..

A single payer option would more than likely sort out old and sick to a stripped down medicare buy in and young and healthy would stay in cheaper for profits that would be able to offer cheaper rates because of that profit sorting effect.

Or is there some kind of safeguard to keep that from happening? Would single payer option be able to negotiate drug pricing and treatment reimbursement? Stop the old and infirm from being thrown off private insurance and onto a public option similar to voucher schools? If the goal is to get to medicare for all why not do that politically instead of forestalling one system, that has broad popular support, in favor of another.

My theory, and it's a popular one in some circles, is that centrists Libs get off on means testing, byzantine rules and large compliance regulation that basically renders a program useless as they intended in order to get that sweet sweet payoff in the form of campaign contributions from the very industry that is doing so much harm for profits.


Edited by chunkstyle (10/29/19 04:10 PM)

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#317494 - 10/29/19 05:23 PM Re: Public option vs Medicare for All [Re: logtroll]
jgw Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3603
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
The entire healthcare/gov/tax thing has been going on forever. The facts, however, are pretty simple. Our system, a for-profit healthcare system, has been rejected by the rest of the developed world. The reason is simple, a for-profit healthcare system costs much more, is not as good as a no-profit healthcare system, and EVERYBODY get covered. The trick, I think, is to study the other systems, cherry pick the best of them, and have at it.

All that being said its just not gonna happen. Between the supporters of for-profit, the current ongoing war against government in general, the advertising clout of the drug companies, etc. its a miracle that non-profit has done as well as it has. The downside is that for-profit has enough supporters so that any endeavor of non-profit cannot win enough support to install an entire single payer system, optional or not. To get it done folks are gonna have to do it gently and without a war between and betwixt parties. Doesn't really matter who thinks what and who supports this or that. This is, I believe, reality and where we are at. Its not pretty but, again factual.

All that being said I think there are enough studies to absolutely prove the economical, and medical, value of a non-profit system. As far as I am concerned having a non-profit healthcare system is the same as having a non-profit police system (can anybody actually even think of a for-profit police system?). I think most people can support a non-profit healthcare system if presented correctly and doesn't threaten the healthcare of people who can currently afford it. I also suspect that anybody who is for a non-profit healthcare system get together and figure out the best way to present same. What we are talking about is reducing the cost of our healthcare by over a TRILLION dollars! When one considers that, and the simple fact that we have a national debt which is going to be around 22 trillion dollars by the end of next year, and there is actually a change to reduce that whilst also reducing the tax increases that are going to be necessary to deal with the debt I suspect we may have a chance.

As far as regulating prices, etc. is concerned. Other nations get it done, does anybody think we re so screwed up that we can't do it too? Are we so proud that we are willing to bankrupt ourselves instead of studying solutions even though they were not invented here? I actually note that there are arguments, in this thread, arguing as to how we will ever possibly control the drug companies. Are you serious? What part of "regulation" is not understood? I hate to throw this in but it sounds a bit like arguments over gun control! Sheer lunacy on a grand scale based, basically, on ignorance, druthers, and myth. We gotta get over this crap! Like the guy they just buried said; "We are better than this!"

(sorry, got a bit carried away..........)

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