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#317890 - 11/11/19 01:05 AM Re: Revenge of the Human Scum [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15781
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Any services, provided by government are, by definition, "socialist" as far as I am concerned.


Quote:
I have never, incidentally, said a wealth tax, subsidized college or a living wage is socialism


But wait...if all government services are socialism then all government services are socialism.

And since we have a lot of government services we are already a socialist nation so what's the beef with electing a socialist?

Unless you don't like government services which means you should be voting for Trump because he also doesn't like government services...

But there's no use going over this with you because you simply cannot grasp the difference between textbook socialism and social democracy.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#317891 - 11/11/19 01:22 AM Re: Revenge of the Human Scum [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15781
Loc: Florida
Quote:
With all this propaganda affecting all the unaffiliated voters, it is insane to run as a socialist, or even a "social democrat" or "democratic socialist".


As far as I know all of the candidates running for the Democratic nomination are running as Democrats. None are running as Democratic Socialists, socialists or social democrats.

Are you saying they should all abandon any progressive ideas they may have and run on whatever platform the DNC says is sufficiently pure to win? Even though all those ideas are supported by a majority of the voters? I say it's better to take a stand and lose than to sell out and win. Or maybe the number two and number three candidates should drop out...because socialisms...and give the single digit candidates a better chance to win because they deserve it more.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#317911 - 11/12/19 09:03 AM Re: Revenge of the Human Scum [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8951
Loc: North San Diego County
Nope, I'm not suggesting any of those things. I just don't want to see some great candidates lose because people believe they are socialists. Republicans are going to be screaming it, because they already are saying it about mainstream Democrats. So don't reinforce it in low-information voter's minds.

I want progressive candidates to give them a story they can get behind: They already know Republicans lie all the time about such stuff. So tell them you are a "progressive Democrat", a candidate who cares about people (even Republicans), an "old-time" FDR-style Democrat. They have to believe good things will happen if you win. Sidestep their racism and xenophobia, and stress unity and America's history as the beacon of freedom to the world. If you want to tell them how Trump has screwed something up, spend most of your time explaining how you plan to fix that.

Classic example: Don't tell them you are coming for their AR-15s. Beto committed political suicide on that one. Tell them we need real solid background checks and systems to get guns out of the hands of criminals and people with mental problems. Most people will assume you are not talking about them!

Finally, throw the seniors a bone: Tell them about Moscow Mitch's plan to cut Medicare and Social Security by giving away all their funds to the rich. Tell them you want to repeal Trump's tax cut and use the money to make those programs solvent. Free college tuition does nothing for them, but keeping those checks coming really does.

I'm not saying that's all you do. Universal health care and free state colleges are something you should work on, but beware the ACA-effect. It crippled Obama for 6 years. Sure, fix everything Trump has broken, but don't make the mistake of overreach the Republicans have made the last three years. You need tons of public support for any big changes, and bipartisan votes in Congress would be a very good idea if you want anything to last.

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#317912 - 11/12/19 03:09 PM Re: Revenge of the Human Scum [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14608
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Nope, I'm not suggesting any of those things. I just don't want to see some great candidates lose because people believe they are socialists. Republicans are going to be screaming it, because they already are saying it about mainstream Democrats. So don't reinforce it in low-information voter's minds.



I do agree that to openly announce oneself as something that millions of low information voters recoil against due to decades of conditioning, is probably the very worst campaign tactic imaginable.

But let's face facts: The United States has been dragged so far to the Far Right that Genghis Khan is almost a socialist now.

I'm simply saying that it's way too late to avoid the generic red-baiting that only a Trump supporter would listen to, and that those people would never consider voting for anyone but Trump anyway.

Got some news for you...
The entire Trump Right is ALREADY saying that virtually everyone on the other side are communists.
We're communists, marxists, socialists, terrorists, America haters, but most importantly, we are communists and socialists...
"VERY VERY BAD!"
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#317917 - 11/12/19 05:59 PM Re: Revenge of the Human Scum [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15781
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I want progressive candidates to give them a story they can get behind


Did you hear Liz Warrens story about when she was a little girl her daddy had a heart attack, they lost the family car, almost lost the house, but her mom took a minimum wage job as a lunch lady and managed to keep the house and feed the family.

She wants better healthcare, living wages, cheaper education. She wants things that every other wealthy nation routinely provides to their citizens. Who can't get behind that story?

In every poll progressive policies are favored by voters.

But because Republicans call all this socialism and communism candidates need to talk about increasing military spending, cutting government spending on entitlements, and tax cuts for the wealthy in a pleasant way that won't offend any republicans.

F*ck Republicans and F*ck Fox News.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#317920 - 11/13/19 01:58 AM Re: Revenge of the Human Scum [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14608
Loc: Whittier, California
A minimum wage job as a lunch lady won't even get you a month's rent on a storage locker these days.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#317921 - 11/13/19 02:46 AM Re: Revenge of the Human Scum [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8951
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
The entire Trump Right is ALREADY saying that virtually everyone on the other side are communists.


Agreed, and you can't do or say anything to reach them. These are people so dumb they support the guy who's idiotic "must win no matter who it hurts" trade policies lost their family farm. BUT Trump's hardcore supporters are only about 35% or less of the population. The other 30% Democrats are on board, so the important folks to reach are the 35% of unaffiliated voters who can be persuaded. You need a story that appeals to them.

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#317925 - 11/13/19 03:34 PM Re: Revenge of the Human Scum [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15781
Loc: Florida
Quote:
You need a story that appeals to them.

You keep asking for stories. I gave you one, there are many. But if these voters are unengaged they aren't listening to any stories at all.

But I don't think these unaffiliated swayable voters exist an any great numbers, just because you aren't a member of either party doesn't mean you never read the news or hear about Donald Trump. Either you like him or you don't. I'm an unaffiliated voter, is there some story Donald Trump might tell that will sway me to vote for him?

No. Because he's lying.

What if I believe that both sides are lying? Is there a lie that will persuade me that the liar is telling the truth? Even when I know that free healthcare, living wages, and free college are never going to happen...just more lies.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#317934 - 11/13/19 11:46 PM Re: Revenge of the Human Scum [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8951
Loc: North San Diego County
The unaffiliated may lean one way or another, but Trump's hard core "believe anything" base is not higher than 35%. The other 65% is either already anti-Trump or could be convinced.

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#317937 - 11/14/19 03:50 AM Re: Revenge of the Human Scum [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14608
Loc: Whittier, California
President Trump is now officially WORRIED about "Never Trumpers".
As well he should be, because their numbers are going to grow.
With every minute of these hearings, more and more a picture is beginning to emerge, and with every minute, one more Trump zombie is extinguished as they join the ranks as brand new fresh NEVER TRUMPERS.
And Trump can't stop what's coming, just like he has been unable to stop everything else that's been coming.
But we dare not take any of this for granted, despite what we see and know is happening.
A wounded pig becomes a dangerous pig.

If this impeachment is successfully quashed on manufactured conspiracy theories, the outcome literally changes this nation into a full-on kleptocracy.
We will quite literally join Russia, pre-rev Ukraine, Honduras, Nigeria, and any number of nations that end in "stan".

We will quite literally become the global capital of Chaostan.

In other words, this is the part in the mythical fairy tale where the sailors actually start to see the water rushing over the edge of the flat earth, this is the point at which we literally sail off and over the edge.

It sounds cute and trite, but.....
"Here be monsters."

Think of the kind of bedfellows we invite into our national security, our intelligence, our justice and our financial centers as a result of such a turn of events.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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