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#318017 - 11/17/19 05:05 PM Re: Revenge of the Human Scum [Re: perotista]
Greger Offline


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Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16925
Loc: Florida
Quote:
One thing you have to realize is I don't like either major party, although I'll support candidates from either one I like.


I don't think anybody here particularly likes either party. Can I just say that I hate one more than I hate the other? I see one as a lost cause and the other as a means to an end.

I think that's the predominant school of thought here.
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#318018 - 11/17/19 05:39 PM Re: Revenge of the Human Scum [Re: pdx rick]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3344
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Hitler was a NATIONAL SOCIALIST! This is yet another reason not to claim to be a socialist - ANY kind of socialist!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

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#318022 - 11/17/19 07:58 PM Re: Revenge of the Human Scum [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9972
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There is a vast difference and a lot of similarity between socialists and national socialists: They both have a very strong central government making all major economic decisions for the country, and tend to have high penalties for any individual who goes against their decisions. The difference is who the government considers allies and benefits by those decisions. Socialist's are all about the people, including working classes and the poorest. Nazis are all about the richest people and their corporations.

They are not really opposites in the authoritarian axis: The opposite is Libertarian, where government has almost no say in economic decisions. All three have a big problem, and that is that strong central planning does not work well. The real world is complex. Anything bigger than a small town is too big for humans to make every planning choice correctly. It's a math thing: The number of variables goes up linearly with size, but the number of interactions among them goes up exponentially. The Libertarians just do zero central planning and that's a different kind of mess, with huge economic inefficiency and overlap.

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#318048 - 11/18/19 04:29 PM Re: Revenge of the Human Scum [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
There is a vast difference and a lot of similarity between socialists and national socialists: They both have a very strong central government making all major economic decisions for the country, and tend to have high penalties for any individual who goes against their decisions. The difference is who the government considers allies and benefits by those decisions. Socialist's are all about the people, including working classes and the poorest. Nazis are all about the richest people and their corporations.

They are not really opposites in the authoritarian axis: The opposite is Libertarian, where government has almost no say in economic decisions. All three have a big problem, and that is that strong central planning does not work well. The real world is complex. Anything bigger than a small town is too big for humans to make every planning choice correctly. It's a math thing: The number of variables goes up linearly with size, but the number of interactions among them goes up exponentially. The Libertarians just do zero central planning and that's a different kind of mess, with huge economic inefficiency and overlap.


The Libertarians, by virtue of their "let it roll" outlook toward an anything goes approach, always manage to leave the door open for a "laissez-faire" approach to inverted socialism.
Thus via a libertarian economy all those big corps line up and get their subsidies, bailouts, and libertarians are happy to stand by and watch social programs get cut to pay for all that.

But the libertarians refuse to learn the lesson they preach so stoicly:

"Eventually you run out of other people's money".

It doesn't seem important to them if it's the poor people' money, they are only interested in admonishing "thuh poorz" about "running out of the rich people's money".

When those rich people feel the sadz, the libertarians don't mind a bit if they take away more from the poorz.



For all the libertarian scaremongering about socialism, they seem perfectly okay with it if it is inverted.
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#318049 - 11/18/19 04:45 PM Re: Revenge of the Human Scum [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: jgw
Hitler was a NATIONAL SOCIALIST! This is yet another reason not to claim to be a socialist - ANY kind of socialist!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism


National socialism is nationalism on steroids, with the word "socialism" intentionally slapped on top to make it look like something it isn't.

Is a Chevy Vega GT a real GT high performance car?
Heh, maybe if you're racing a four year old on his plastic Big Wheel trike.



Oh wait, those aren't four year olds...
But I bet they still could beat a Chevy Vega GT.

And GM convinced enough buyers that it really was sporty that they didn't lose their ass on the car...until they did.
Never mind that the zero to sixty time was measured in months, not seconds.

And that's about what "National Socialism" is to SOCIALISM.
It's a "GT" sticker to make people think it is something it's not, because in 1930's Europe, the word "socialism" sounded pretty good to most Euros, particularly the Weimar weary debt addled Germans who were, at the time, burning large bundles of Reichsmarks because it was cheaper than buying firewood.


National socialism is just fascism with an attractive sounding name.
But it is indeed true that both nazism and pure state socialism are authoritarian in nature.

Social democracy, on the other hand, is capitalism.
It's capitalism done the FDR way, the New Deal way, pretty much.

Thing is, FDR was smart enough to sell it as a very American and very middle class friendly form of capitalism, and he never mentioned the word "socialism" or "social".
He just added the hot sauce and everyone's capitalism tasted a little better, that's all. He didn't even get to add enough of the stuff, but it still helped a great deal.

It helped for well over forty years.
_________________________
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#318053 - 11/18/19 09:39 PM Re: Revenge of the Human Scum [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16925
Loc: Florida
I'm just going to mention that this thread is about the Human Scum(Republicans who don't like Donald Trump) possibly influencing the 2020 election by withholding their votes or voting for the Democrat and thus having revenge on Donald Trump.

But I love talking about socialism in all its various forms because I am a socialist.

I think JGW was joking when he mentioned National Socialists, The National Socialist German Workers Party. It was the very opposite of socialism. Under NAZI rule nearly every aspect of the people's lives were controlled by the government. In a Social Democracy every aspect of the government is controlled by the people.

There is an enormous misunderstanding where socialism is concerned.

It's not the government which owns the means of production, it's the people. Every citizen is a shareholder.
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#318054 - 11/18/19 11:14 PM Re: Revenge of the Human Scum [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9972
Loc: North San Diego County
Sounds great, but it never seems to work out that way. There is always some Party with the Party elite, some Central Committee that decides who gets what. All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others. Each individual person may own his share of the means of production, but he isn't free to do anything with it. So it's exactly like not owning anything at all! It may be (mostly) benevolent authoritarianism, but it's still authoritarian. And even if there were no "leaders" it would still be tyranny of the majority.

That's what I don't like about pure socialism. Mix in some capitalist ideas like private property and the rule of law, and individuals have a hell of a lot more freedom.

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#318058 - 11/18/19 11:59 PM Re: Revenge of the Human Scum [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16925
Loc: Florida
You can say pretty much the same thing about capitalism.

How long before we have our first trillionaire? How long before one mega corporation owns everything?

I don't think we really have a choice about evolving into a social democracy. It's that or just kick half the population to the curb.

Is capitalism working? I see a world buried in debt and a smattering of uber rich pricks hoarding gold like a storybook dragon.

Capitalism desperately needs a socialist infusion.
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#318059 - 11/19/19 01:10 AM Re: Revenge of the Human Scum [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16925
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Mix in some capitalist ideas like private property and the rule of law, and individuals have a hell of a lot more freedom.
Why ever wouldn't a person be able to own his home or car, or own and operate a small business in a social democracy? Where would the rule of law go? That's not a capitalist-specific thing.
In the US of course we even have constitutional restraints. But just a few tweaks will put us in a far better place.

A living wage. Education. Healthcare. None of them are really all that complicated. All of them are political footballs.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#318061 - 11/19/19 01:46 AM Re: Revenge of the Human Scum [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9972
Loc: North San Diego County
I agree entirely. We live in a mixed system. We just need to tweek it a bit. Go back to Harry Truman's time and the top tax rates were something like 95%. The way it's set now, the rich get richer automatically, and the poor have no opportunity to better themselves. That's a recipe for Third World Shite Hole right there. Even some rich people have figured out they don't want to live in a Third World Shite Hole!

But you were talking about Socialism:
Quote:
There is an enormous misunderstanding where socialism is concerned. It's not the government which owns the means of production, it's the people. Every citizen is a shareholder.

You've just made every business owned by everybody, and therefore controlled by the government, of whatever form they agree on. Individuals don't own their own businesses, because they belong to everybody.

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