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#318073 - 11/19/19 01:59 PM Organic Socialism
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9585
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Following the recent Gregerian Rants regarding the real meaning of socialism, which make a lot of sense to me...
I came across this article an hour ago. This organic concept of a social system has been in my mind for many years, but I haven't had the wherewithal to describe it coherently. I debated about posting it under NWP's new topic, however it's far more general and metaphorical than the subject of land ownership, so I thought combining them would be too muddlesome.

Quote:
Lately, Iíve been mulling over what I think is a better metaphor for the cooperative movement, or rather, a better metaphor for what I hope to see the cooperative movement become: not an ecosystem, but an organism. Not a collection of disparate entities occupying the same space, each working for its own survival, but rather a single entity with many parts and pieces that play different roles in the functioning and health of the larger whole; a whole which in turn supports each of its constituent parts.
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#318080 - 11/19/19 07:11 PM Re: Organic Socialism [Re: logtroll]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2638
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Interesting thought. The problem is that "socialism" refers to not a collective but a nation. its nice to think that people can form a group and act in the interesting of that group. However, we are talking, basically, about over 300 million people which is a bit more, I suspect, than one thinks of a "group", organism, or even cooperative movement. I am not even convinced that its possible to get over 300 million people to actually agree on ANYTHING! I do know, that is simply not possible in the United States.

I read an article on the coming 2020 census. This is going to be a genuine mess of huge proportion. The administration has reduced the money available to the census because Trump thinks it costs too much. Given that this is a man who is bravely adding a trillion dollars a year to the debt one can only wonder. Here is a link: https://www.prb.org/why-are-they-asking-...nsus-questions/

The fact is that the simple fact of trying to figure out who makes up the nation is going to be a genuine problem kinda, I think, should make us all wonder what we are really capable of doing as a society to which we ALL belong!

In other words - social undertakings, which are paid for by society is really a decision made in the name of that society and not the society itself. Police, for instance, are actually a social undertaking for, and by, society itself (in theory but not really). Still, there are, as far as I know, nobody but miscreants who want an end to police departments.

Anyway, just saying.........................

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#318083 - 11/19/19 11:27 PM Re: Organic Socialism [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15781
Loc: Florida
We are rapidly approaching a time when there are a lot more people than there are good paying jobs. When there are more and more people not earning enough to feed and house themselves. Part of it is automation, part of it is overpopulation, and part of it is corporate greed feeding on the poor like hogs at a trough.

Most of it is corporate greed feeding on the poor like hogs at a trough.

So what are we gonna do about it?
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"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#318086 - 11/20/19 02:44 AM Re: Organic Socialism [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14608
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger


Most of it is corporate greed feeding on the poor like hogs at a trough.


You're describing socialism, except in this case it is inverted socialism, which of course means it is actually a form of fascism.
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The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#318089 - 11/20/19 01:45 PM Re: Organic Socialism [Re: jgw]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9585
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: jgw
Interesting thought. The problem is that "socialism" refers to not a collective but a nation. its nice to think that people can form a group and act in the interesting of that group. However, we are talking, basically, about over 300 million people which is a bit more, I suspect, than one thinks of a "group", organism, or even cooperative movement. I am not even convinced that its possible to get over 300 million people to actually agree on ANYTHING! I do know, that is simply not possible in the United States.

It's just a metaphor, not a plan. I believe there is something wrong with human mental functions (all of us) and we generally don't recognize it (except in others). Think of all the "normalizing" that is going on these days with ethics and civility being tossed in the ditch. How does that happen so easily? How can Libs and Cons have such opposite takes on reality?

We have a problem and we don't understand it. I was stimulated by the article to think about a model for how humanity should interact, which gives some insight into the problem areas. Because it's metaphorical it can penetrate our consciousnesses in ways that straight logic can't. "Organic Socialism" isn't a solution, it's a different way to think about things and to sort out what is better and what is worse about human behavior.

Another way of seeing it is that through the metaphor of social interaction being an organism we can diagnose the illnesses, which might lead to cures.

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2019/....jpg?width=1280
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#318096 - 11/20/19 07:27 PM Re: Organic Socialism [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15781
Loc: Florida
Quote:
inverted socialism


Is just capitalism. The means of production and distribution are wholly owned and controlled by a few powerful interests while society(the focus of socialism) is left to fend for itself.

So no, inverted socialism isn't a thing.

Managed capitalism is a thing which strongly resembles democratic socialism but avoids the hated word. Democrats have attempted to manage capitalism but have met with terrific resistance from the cporporatists.



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"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#318105 - 11/20/19 08:27 PM Re: Organic Socialism [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14608
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
inverted socialism


Is just capitalism. The means of production and distribution are wholly owned and controlled by a few powerful interests while society(the focus of socialism) is left to fend for itself.

So no, inverted socialism isn't a thing.


Until it is, we're talking about degrees.
Means of production and distribution being wholly owned and controlled by a few powerful interests while society(the focus of socialism) is left to fend for itself is jolly well okay when society is not deprived of the tools it needs to do just that.

And that is where weapons grade greed TURNS capitalism INTO inverted socialism. Those "few powerful interests" see the beauty of the socialist model and flip it their exclusive benefit at the exclusive expense OF society, to the point where the struggle to fend for themselves becomes a near impossibility for the average working family, the very group socialism is designed to help.

Originally Posted By: Greger

Managed capitalism is a thing which strongly resembles democratic socialism but avoids the hated word. Democrats have attempted to manage capitalism but have met with terrific resistance from the cporporatists.



Of course, the resistance is due to the fact that the corporatists love all the "bailouts" and "tax cuts", which are the very core of inverted socialism.

Again, a matter of degree. It only BECOMES 'inverted socialism' if the dial gets turned too far, otherwise it IS just as you say, ordinary capitalism.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#318111 - 11/21/19 12:54 AM Re: Organic Socialism [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8951
Loc: North San Diego County
I just read an interesting science fiction novel. Both the Chinese and US economies are falling apart and everybody is converting their savings and investments into a cryptocurrency. As a result all the banks get nationalized. Then an AI gives every person on Earth a million dollars worth of the cryptocurrency. I think this would be the same as getting rid of all money: When everybody has something, it's not "worth" anything.

If everybody received $1000 a month from the government, would everything just get more expensive? Would poor people end up in the same economic position?

Maybe a path to a more equitable society is instead to give every US citizen a birthright non-transferable "share" of the total stock in the stock markets. They would get a dividend check every month, so we would all be capitalists. This would be much like Alaska residents getting an oil income check every year, which has pretty wide political support. If corporations get richer, the dividend checks go up.

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#318249 - 11/24/19 08:21 PM Re: Organic Socialism [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14608
Loc: Whittier, California
As much as regular folks deride national politics as a wholly corrupt enterprise and as fond as the teeming masses seem to be of laying a pox on both houses, make no mistake, this is a make or break moment for democracy in our history.
And a 2020 election with another Republican trifecta under the aegis of Donald Trump will be its death knell.

I remember a 2009 Newsweek cover hinting at an op-ed by Jon Meacham, "We Are All Socialists Now".


Originally Posted By: Jon Meacham
All of this is unfolding in an economy that can no longer be understood, even in passing, as the Great Society vs. the Gipper.

This isn't a tribal rivalry anymore. At this point it's not even two armed opponents loading their clips and preparing for a duel to the death, because one shooter is using hostages as human shields as they aim at each other.

If the hostages die, will Newsweek publish a cover like this instead?

_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#318252 - 11/24/19 09:04 PM Re: Organic Socialism [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15781
Loc: Florida
We can always hope...
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"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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