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#318226 - 11/23/19 10:15 PM Re: The Trump/Biden/Ukraine thing [Re: pdx rick]
rporter314 Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 7273
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
Trump initially had his corrupt Ukrainian official, prosecutor general Yuri Lutsenko, but Lutsenko lost his job

I dont think this timeline is accurate.

Lutsenko resigned as Prosecutor General in Nov 2018. He first talked to Giuliani in Jan 2019. However Lutsenko had previously cast some aspersions on Hunter Biden in regard to Burisma. Lutsenko met with Giuliani in Feb 2019 and later one more time briefly in Europe. By May 2019 Lutsenko had changed his story by saying he believed Hunter Biden had not broken an Ukrainian laws.

Of course by May 2019 the Ukraine Gambit was in full deployment, having successfully deposed the recalcitrant Ambassador.

I have not finalized a conclusion on whether Mr Trump believes the Ukraine Conspiracy narrative or he uses it as a pretext for useful political dirty works against VP Biden. One may point to the last move in the Gambit i.e. just get the announcement , as proof that was all he wanted. As a narcissist he would almost have to believe he won the election all on his very own, without any help from the Russians, and any story which represents the Russians actually helping would be met with derision and hypercritical tweeting.

Any chance to undermine the prevailing narrative from the IC and MSM the Russians not only meddled in the election but helped him win the election would play directly into his delusion. It is easy to figure out and explain the why of his actions but more difficult to find the predicating framework which inspires his delusions.
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#318227 - 11/23/19 10:41 PM Re: The Trump/Biden/Ukraine thing [Re: logtroll]
pdx rick Offline
Member
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43291
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


Devin Nunes was already working the "get dirt on Biden" in the Fall of 2018 for Trump.

Hmm
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#318232 - 11/24/19 04:45 AM Re: The Trump/Biden/Ukraine thing [Re: logtroll]
rporter314 Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 7273
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Lutsenko is all over the map, so I don't know what to believe about him. He may just be working the system to get the dough.
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#318601 - 12/04/19 04:09 AM Re: The Trump/Biden/Ukraine thing [Re: logtroll]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Has anyone ever questioned the irony of the liberal class righteous indignation or unquestioning rightward drift taking place as it loses their mind over Trump occupying the whitehouse?
I mean, has anyone even heard them question the wisdom of supplying weapons to a former soviet state gone hard right to begin with? A government rewriting the role of their fascist death squads during ww2 now recognized as national hero’s by the current government?
I know Trump bad and all that but have the libs ever questioned the wisdom of arming neonazis, they are so offended withholding military aid from, that it has ignited their impeachment quest?
Has any brain broke liberal asked these questions?

I just wonder how far Libs have wandered into impeachment Narnia, do they even recognize how they are now supporting fascists in the Ukraine as well as other places in the world.





Edited by chunkstyle (12/04/19 04:33 AM)

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#318602 - 12/04/19 04:16 AM Re: The Trump/Biden/Ukraine thing [Re: logtroll]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine

Note the date of publication.

Ignoring Libya and Syria, what could go wrong?

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#318605 - 12/04/19 05:43 AM Re: The Trump/Biden/Ukraine thing [Re: chunkstyle]
rporter314 Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 7273
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
Libs have wandered into impeachment Narnia

Two different issues.

Regardless of the context, should any president abuse the public trust, they should be held accountable.

Support for regimes which do not comport with American values and ideals is a separate question. There is a level of complexity associated with probably most of these type countries which involves an extensive discussion. In the case of Ukraine, one can easily see they are on the front line of an aggressive nation state which is our political enemy. Should we simply allow Russia to use the Sudetenland Ruse to encroach on western europe. I suspect these are tough choices (to most folks except perhaps Mr Trump).
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#318607 - 12/04/19 02:25 PM Re: The Trump/Biden/Ukraine thing [Re: rporter314]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Yes, it is two separate issues.
It’s revealing, though, which one has been the most important.

It’s been said we live in a post truth world now. You could also say we’ve been living in a context free world.

The case of impeachment has always been a sketchy one with no discussion at all about wether it’s been wise to charge him with liberal debate squad infractions when there’s been plenty of real crimes he’d been guilty of. Setting aside the choices libs have made here and why, I don’t recall any one raising the question of what we’re doing in the Ukraine in the first place.
We’re over there at Russia’s door step.
We were not supposed to expand NATO up to their borders when the wall came down. I even remember the debates over wether Russia would be made a member of the EU back in the nineties.
Now we have actually placed military on the traditional invasion routes into Russia after American hedge funds went into the country, stripped out its public goods and assets thru privatization, caused massive hardships thru neoliberal austerity and basically helped turn the country into a mafia state.
Now libs are pretending that the Ukraine is some bastion of democracy we’re supporting with weaponry.
Say what you want about the president and the incompetent criminality of the administration, but you could also argue the Libs being equally criminal with their framing of arguments and willingness to support fascist regimes.
Again, libs live in a brain broke, context free, reactionary world.
Wild to watch them throw in with fascists.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/04/19 02:29 PM)

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#318608 - 12/04/19 05:40 PM Re: The Trump/Biden/Ukraine thing [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17282
Loc: Florida
Ukraine...The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

We cannot directly wage war on Russia. They cannot directly wage war on us...But we can arm their neighbors and get a little quid pro quo in the bargain...they can interfere in our elections and make a little cash in the bargain...Vlad gotta be laughin' his ass off over all this.
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#318610 - 12/04/19 06:21 PM Re: The Trump/Biden/Ukraine thing [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
My guess is Vlad is aware of his history and has been very troubled with the military posture and location of the US.

Who wouldn’t?

Who are the enemies of Brazil, Venezuela and Bolivia that we’ve supported Christian Right wing neonazis over there (inconvenient to point out) more leftists democratically elected governments?

No, libs are truly in Narnia when it comes to these events and our bipartisan involvement with them.

I heard either Hedges or Frank remark that the Weimar German liberal class was the most read and edjucated in Europe. It’s worth mentioning that, when push came to shove then and now, the classic liberal position is a reactionary rightward direction.

Some historical context



Edited by chunkstyle (12/04/19 06:24 PM)

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#318616 - 12/04/19 10:14 PM Re: The Trump/Biden/Ukraine thing [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17282
Loc: Florida
There's never really been much difference between the parties as far as global politics is concerned, not really that much difference in domestic policy either.

One of the parties might be marginally better than the other.

My goal in the near future is to get that party into power then hold their toes to the fire to make them better than they are now and better than they have been. It may be futile but I can hope.
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