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#318891 - 12/11/19 09:03 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: logtroll]
rporter314 Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 7240
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I suspect emoluments will fail because there is no case law (precedents) to support a case based on foreign government payments to an ongoing enterprise. If such foreign governments had offered or given monies to Mr Trump personally (a direct handoff) you have a good case. And why would it be a good case? Because the Constitution says so.

Now suppose you can prove Mr Trump has some real estate deal cooking in Russia or Saudi Arabia, and one of them has given Mr Trump some incentive to provide favorable federal regulations or perhaps repealed sanctions, or etc for favorable consideration in a real estate deal. I would say you have money in the bank, otherwise you have a tough argument before judges who don't want to create law withiout justification.

However, I am feeling the possibility of a censure resolution. If the Senate sees the problem of presidential stonewalling of Congress (and you can argue the case this is tantamount to ending the Republic), then it would also have to entertain the idea the cause of the obstruction is the "non-crime" of seeking foreign aid in an election. We would have sine non qua. While Republicans would not convict for the "non-crime" they can not convict for the obvious impeachable and corrosive act of obstruction. This leads me to suspect the soft gambit of censure may win the day.

But I dunno .... I am not an attorney
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty
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#318894 - 12/11/19 09:57 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17064
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Is anyone seriously under the impression that everything Trump has done would not have triggered an impeachment?

If the House hadn't flipped in 2018 there would have been no impeachment. It's unlikely that any Republican in the house will vote to impeach Trump and no Republican senator vote to convict him. The charges are valid but weak.

I'm with Chunks on the emolument thing but one thing we can be sure of is that some of the best legal minds in the country have been working on ways to make that one stick and for some reason it's a non starter.
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#318897 - 12/11/19 11:27 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Originally Posted By: Greger


... one thing we can be sure of is that some of the best legal minds in the country have been working on ways to make that one stick and for some reason it's a non starter.



I've posted this conversation up before but I find Tiabbi's question being answered by Buttar is the reason why.

Impeachment conversation starts at 1:04:32
Taibbi's question gets asked at 1:06:30



There's alot of speculation on why they're not pursuing emoluments but I agree with Buttar's answer. He's not the only one holding this view either but he happens to be running. Good on em, I say.

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#318900 - 12/12/19 12:56 AM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17064
Loc: Florida
I listened. But I still don't get it.

It seems like a slam dunk. But what do I know? Maybe they're saving that for the next impeachment?

I wish we had candidates like Buttar down here...but we aint exactly San Francisco either. Man buns and straggly beards aren't allowed in our elections.
_________________________
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#318905 - 12/12/19 01:56 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
I think they’re right with their observation that Emoluments is a threat to the corporate gravy train both parties have been enjoying for decades now. So no emoluments charges. It’s bipartison, so there’s that.

Personally, I’m all for congress members who look like regular people, in Buttars case a killer weed dealer, and not some corporate spokesperson about to go on TV.
Wish in one hand...

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#318907 - 12/12/19 05:08 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: logtroll]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Dore gettin his hate on with Pelosi and the Democrats' hypocrisy with this impeachment ..




I don't see this ending well for the Democratic party. Libs continue angering the left and the right.

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#318908 - 12/12/19 05:36 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
There's going to either be a war or a total collapse. My gut tells me that Trumpublicans are gearing up for the culminating gambit in their promised "deconstruction of the administrative state", and the goal is to render the United States wholly ungovernable as long as it remains the least bit democratic.

For the last forty years, Republicans have been sore losers and cannot and will not accept the notion that the Left also has a valid right to help formulate American values and help run the country in a bipartisan effort together with them.

For the last forty years, the most enduring precept in Republican thinking has been the notion that Democrats, and anyone aligned in any way with left-leaning liberalism are entirely and utterly illegitimate, and at this point, they now openly accuse us of not even deserving of status as legitimate Americans.

The fact that they must put up with losing the occasional election, losing the occasional Congressional majority, put up with having to obey laws that they did not write or approve of, or economic or social policies they disagree with, has rankled them to the point where, finally in 1994, their dam of discipline, decorum and statesmanlike conduct broke altogether, and they began an accelerated push to dismantle any notion of bipartisanship altogether.
When authoritarianism hops into bed with fundamentalist religious zealotry and weaponized foreign skullduggery, a bastard child arising from such an unsavory union is sure to slouch toward a New 21st Century Night of the Long Knives.

It is rather obvious at this point, that Trump Republicans have decided that it is better for them to burn it all down if they can't be allowed to cheat, so we are now witnessing a scorched Earth end run, in a final attempt to delegitimize constitutional remedies to massive corruption. And if they do learn that they truly cannot win at the ballot box or in the halls of constitutional action, they absolutely WILL resort to enlisting outside help from hostile adversaries to ruin the democratic process altogether.

And there is now no question anymore, that failing that, they will indeed attempt to resort to their beloved bullets.
They have already telegraphed that on countless occasions, openly advocating for violence as a solution.

And the worst part of all is, authoritarians of all stripes, both extreme Left and extreme Right, are cheering for the fire.
They know not and care not from whence the fire comes, they are just attracted to any flame which cooks the carcass they hope to feed on.
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#318915 - 12/12/19 07:39 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17064
Loc: Florida
Quote:
There's going to either be a war or a total collapse.


Waxing a bit hyperbolic this morning?

There's going to be an election. Then in a couple years, another one.

As near as I can tell, Republican policy always fails. Every Republican president leaves a bigger mess than he started with and every Democrat makes things ever so slightly better.

Republicans in general believe that if everybody would just leave Trump alone he would magically fix everything. Since Democrats have attacked him and obstructed his every move he has been held back from Making America Great Again. Everything that goes wrong is the fault of Democrats.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#318916 - 12/12/19 07:59 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: logtroll]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Republicans are getting what they want though.
The courts, the taxes, deregulation, etc.
The Democrats have proven not to be an opposition party.
You could argue that they’ve agreed on more than they have disagreed,
What they’ve disagreed on has largely been unimportant, IMO.
They control the purse but keep giving him the means.

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#318919 - 12/12/19 08:40 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: Greger]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3464
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
As far as I can tell the democrats have never taken over, from the Republicans, without the Republicans leaving a financial mess in their wake. This is a historical fact going waaay back. It is unlikely that the Dems can win the next election unless the Republicans screw up the economy, especially given the current figures (3.5% unemployment, etc) Its also a known fact that jobs are #1 and people tend to vote their pocketbooks.

I have believed that Trump was going to leave a financial disaster after his first term. He has created massive debt, etc. and maybe that is enough but that's pretty unlikely. He is obviously not well liked but gets credit for the current economy and its REALLY good!

In other words I just don't believe that Trump is currently beatable. When you throw in the continuous rancor within the Democratic party I fear that is a fact.

If the Dems had taken them all into court, after the beginning of all the really offensive stuff there might have been a chance to get the goods on him but that has been abandoned, by the Democrats so Trump gets to keep on wrecking the nation and, seemingly, nothing stands in his way. I fully believe he is running a criminal enterprise but that's just me and its pretty obvious that if there is any criminal activity its well hidden and, unfortunately, nobody is going to figure it out as there have been efforts along those lines for almost 3 years and all have, so far, failed.

Remember, its unusual for even 50% of American voters to vote in a national election. They showed strength in 2018 but the current indications is that people are tiring of it all and its unlikely they are going to come out. Its also interesting in who doesn't vote. Basically, the poor and the young and blacks don't normally come out in force either. This is just the way it is, I guess. I suspect we are an politically ignorant and politically lazy nation and we get to pay the price every day.

There are current polls that, pretty much, define our ignorance and its claimed they don't even bother to teach civics in high schools anymore.

I sincerely hope I am wrong..........





I sincerely hope I am wrong.................

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