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#319722 - 01/06/20 07:24 PM Re: Insulin [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Where did you find the ‘classic’ definition of socialism JGW?

But, no, I’m not agreeing to your adolescent definitions of socialism any more your ideas of capitalism.

Those are your definitions bubbah.

You’ll be pleased to hear that the poors around me agree with your scorn!
Of course! The answer to unaffordable life saving medicine is to simply build a modern pharmaceutical manufacturing plant and set up or partner with a distribution chain.

Heck, the diabetic poors are already starting to shame the chemotherapy poors. The competitive marketplace restoring rational price signaling!


Edited by chunkstyle (01/06/20 07:25 PM)

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#319723 - 01/06/20 07:28 PM Re: Insulin [Re: jgw]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 608
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: jgw
Ahhhhhhhhh! I think you mean the classic socialism. The workers own everything and they have a committee to decide things. The committee is normally run by one man usually referred to as 'leader'.

Yah, that's a really good idea!


You just described the American government.
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#319758 - 01/07/20 08:03 PM Re: Insulin [Re: Hamish Howl]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3595
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I have always found the whole thing pretty entertaining. Chunk, for instance, knows all the words and phrases starting with "the workers" harken back to the old Communist days before 1917. Now we are in modern times. Don' make no difference. Same stuff. Now, however, we are told that our government comes from "the people" and "the people run the government through their vote". Sounds about as good as the the old Commies did.

In our case they are right, and wrong. For instance, if a voting turnout more than 50% occurs its heralded as huge, a landslide, etc. Its not, its a disgrace, it means that normal is when fewer than half the electorate actaully vote. All of us have wondered about the supporters of Trump. Those folks have been polled on just about everything. The results are a bit startling. Just for starters a majority of them would prefer for the government to go away so Trump can REALLY fix things! These people are walking, lockstep, to Fascism. Here is one description of that one:
"Fascism is a form of government that is a type of one-party dictatorship. Fascists are against democracy. ... Fascism puts nation and often race above the individual. It stands for a centralized government headed by a dictator. Historically, fascist governments tend to be militaristic, and racist."

This is SERIOUS! We are concerned about Trump's actions, with reason. But, 40% of this nation seems to be Fascist! This is where Hitler was in the 30's! Does everybody here think that if Trump loses the next election he is going to go quietly? Really? Hell, his supporters will not allow that to happen. They have found Righteous Truth in God's Appointed on Earth and that seems to be a literal fact!

I have watched, on this site, lefties duke it out over this and that. I have watched the Dems in so-called debates attack each other instead of Trump! My suspicion is that we are in serious trouble and, as far as I can tell, nobody is really all that upset. I am old and can weather it but my kids can't and my grandchildren, and great grandchildren sure as hell can't. There are voices out there talking about this but they are a bit muted. There are people, on this site, who have proudly stated that if their choice doesn't get the Dem not he/she will not vote. Yah, another great idea! WTF!!!!!!!

I have no idea why I just went off like that. I believe what I said but, still..............

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#319760 - 01/07/20 08:36 PM Re: Insulin [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
The government largely HAS "gone away" and Trump REALLY IS fixing things. He's just getting warmed up.

Let him win another four years and with another split House and Senate, or worse, another GOP trifecta and he will REALLY fix things.
He'll fix everything, starting with that pesky democracy business.
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#319761 - 01/07/20 08:53 PM Re: Insulin [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10339
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
No, somehow I don’t think Marx’s prescription for inhumane and destructive capitalism was an employee stock option plan. I could be wrong though.


It's the modern implementation of the workers owning the means of production. Talk to some WinCo employees. They really do have a sense of ownership. Of course, you can't take a job with them and suddenly have an equal share as people who have been working there for 30 years. That wouldn't be fair. So I think it's actually better than Marx's "ESOP" plan. (<--joke)

You can talk about the revolution that sets everything right (in terms of workers owning the MOP) in one fell swoop, but nobody believes that actually works. This does so within the existing set of laws, due process, and fiduciary responsibility. Sorry if it does not involve enough heads on poles.

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#319763 - 01/07/20 09:08 PM Re: Insulin [Re: pondering_it_all]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 608
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
No, somehow I don’t think Marx’s prescription for inhumane and destructive capitalism was an employee stock option plan. I could be wrong though.


It's the modern implementation of the workers owning the means of production. Talk to some WinCo employees. They really do have a sense of ownership. Of course, you can't take a job with them and suddenly have an equal share as people who have been working there for 30 years. That wouldn't be fair. So I think it's actually better than Marx's "ESOP" plan. (<--joke)

You can talk about the revolution that sets everything right (in terms of workers owning the MOP) in one fell swoop, but nobody believes that actually works. This does so within the existing set of laws, due process, and fiduciary responsibility. Sorry if it does not involve enough heads on poles.


We can still do the heads on pikes thing, though.
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#319765 - 01/07/20 09:17 PM Re: Insulin [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10339
Loc: North San Diego County
The main problem with American Medicine is that universities and research institutions do government funded research and when they discover a useful drug, the government gives it to a pharmaceutical company "for development". That consists of running some lab tests (to duplicate the universities results) and then running clinical trials (almost always at university medical centers). Nobody goes to Pfizer's clinic for their drug trial, because Pfizer does not HAVE a clinic. Note that so far government grants and state universities have paid for almost everything.

Then the patent office gives the drug company a patent on it, and the FDA gives them an exclusive license to make and sell the drug for many years. They can charge ANYTHING they want, and insurance companies, the VA, and Medicare have to pay it. (Insurance companies and VA can negotiate, but not much.) They can also set the royalty charge to anything they want to lock other manufacturers out.

This is government-enforced extortion, plain and simple. A drug I take was used for decades for autoimmune diseases in the public domain. It costs about $10 a pound to make. Then an American drug company tested it against MS (an autoimmune disease), found it worked pretty well, and got a patent on a time-release version. (Although the non-time-release version probably works as well.) They have locked everybody else out for years, and they charge upwards of $70,000 per year for it.

Congress could fix this easily: Just change the exclusive right law (or maybe those are just FDA regulations) so any legitimate drug manufacturer can make such drugs, and limit the royalty charges to something like 10 times what it costs to make it. Or even 100 times, because they are charging about 70,000 times as much for it now!

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#319766 - 01/07/20 09:25 PM Re: Insulin [Re: Hamish Howl]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10339
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
We can still do the heads on pikes thing, though.


Outstanding! Noting quite as exhilarating as marching triumphant along a parade route lined with your enemies heads on pikes. Historically, that has always been the punishment for treason. A conservative principle I admire.

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#319769 - 01/07/20 10:03 PM Re: Insulin [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17263
Loc: Florida
Quote:
There are people, on this site, who have proudly stated that if their choice doesn't get the Dem not he/she will not vote.


I think I'm the only one who has said I will not vote for Biden. I don't really have a preferred candidate but I'm a progressive and I'd like to see a progressive candidate get the nod...Pretty much anybody but Biden will get my vote. If Democrats are stupid enough to choose Biden then they deserve the beating they'll take with him against Trump. I doubt if Chunks would vote Biden but he hasn't come right out and said it recently.

Simply put...it's up to you Democrats to beat Trump. If you can't do it on your own with Biden don't come whining to me about it. Don't come whining to the sick and poor because we don't vote for stupid candidates that won't do anything to help. This government belongs entirely to those two parties and their members.

Duke it out among yourselves. Don't blame the rest of us if your party can't beat Trump with that washed up old fart. Apparently you refuse to support a socialist. I'm okay with that, I'm okay if you refuse to vote for Bernie when he gets the nod. I don't care who you vote for or whether you vote at all.

And I don't care what the polls say, Biden will not be able to beat Trump. Elect him as your nominee at your own peril.

Generic insulin is $25 a vial at Walmart. Over the counter. No prescription has ever been required to buy it. An insulin syringe is about 50 cents. Insulin is insulin. Some is fast acting and some is slow acting but any diabetic can use any of it in a pinch.
This is BS...kid quit taking his meds and died...
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#319775 - 01/08/20 12:36 AM Re: Insulin [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger


Generic insulin is $25 a vial at Walmart. Over the counter. No prescription has ever been required to buy it. An insulin syringe is about 50 cents. Insulin is insulin. Some is fast acting and some is slow acting but any diabetic can use any of it in a pinch.
This is BS...kid quit taking his meds and died...


Are you absolutely sure that you read the entire story about that kid?
I ask because insulin is not one size fits all and while he might have wound up dead anyway forty years ago, the fact is, when he tried to use generic insulin, it made his life unmanageable to a large degree.

Snopes Fact Check

Certain Type 1 diabetics and even a small number of Type 2 diabetics have advanced risk of ketoacidosis even if they take generic insulin regularly. That is the reason newer versions of the drug, like Humalog, (just as one example) were invented and developed.

Alec is his real name, not Alex, and he had to have a specific kind of Humalog Insulin to avoid the rapid pogo stick fluctuations in his blood sugar and to ward off ketoacidosis attacks.

The fact that well over a third of the country is either pre-diabetic or diabetic makes it pretty clear that this is now a bonafide national health emergency, like polio or AIDS.

Call me crazy but I think when something reaches that level, it warrants some sort of special handling, but maybe that's just me.

BTW, don't even get me started on the Dialysis Racket.
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