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#320018 - 01/14/20 04:36 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: logtroll]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 600
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: perotista
Each state legislature can change the way they award their electoral votes. That is if they wanted to. None want to.

Many want to... Popular Vote Interstate Compact
Quote:
The National Popular Vote Interstate Compact (NPVIC) is an agreement among a group of U.S. states and the District of Columbia to award all their electoral votes to whichever presidential candidate wins the overall popular vote in the 50 states and the District of Columbia. The compact is designed to ensure that the candidate who receives the most votes nationwide is elected president, and it would come into effect only when it would guarantee that outcome. As of January 2020, it has been adopted by fifteen states and the District of Columbia. Together, they have 196 electoral votes, which is 36.4% of the Electoral College and 72.6% of the 270 votes needed to give the compact legal force.


This is basically just another case of people deciding that they don't need to use the mechanisms set up in the constitution (either to use the electoral college as stated, or to amend it out of existence), and I think there's been enough of that.
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#320020 - 01/14/20 04:55 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: Hamish Howl]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10250
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
This is basically just another case of people deciding that they don't need to use the mechanisms set up in the constitution (either to use the electoral college as stated, or to amend it out of existence), and I think there's been enough of that.

The argument is being made that the electoral college has never functioned as intended... basically by its proponents.

Quote:
Protective function of Electoral College

Opponents of a national popular vote contend that the Electoral College serves to protect the country from the election of a person who is unfit to be president. Certain founders conceived of the Electoral College as a deliberative body which would weigh the inputs of the states, but not be bound by them, in selecting the president. However, the Electoral College has never served such a role in practice. From 1796 onward, presidential electors have acted as "rubber stamps" for their parties' nominees. As of 2016, no election outcome has been determined by an elector deviating from the will of their state, and twenty-nine states and the District of Columbia have laws punishing such "faithless electors". Moreover, the National Popular Interstate Compact does not eliminate the Electoral College or affect faithless elector laws; it merely changes the way in which electors are pledged by the participating states.
_________________________
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#320021 - 01/14/20 05:10 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16925
Loc: Florida
If a Republican was ever denied the White House due to the vagaries of the electoral college I think we'd see some changes right quick.

But it's possible that a Republican will never achieve an actual majority of the popular vote again so we aren't liable to see much change.

As in 2016 Donald Trump could lose this election by millions of votes and still be declared the winner. His followers will call it a landslide and a mandate...
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#320023 - 01/14/20 05:16 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: logtroll]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 600
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
This is basically just another case of people deciding that they don't need to use the mechanisms set up in the constitution (either to use the electoral college as stated, or to amend it out of existence), and I think there's been enough of that.

The argument is being made that the electoral college has never functioned as intended... basically by its proponents.

Quote:
Protective function of Electoral College

Opponents of a national popular vote contend that the Electoral College serves to protect the country from the election of a person who is unfit to be president. Certain founders conceived of the Electoral College as a deliberative body which would weigh the inputs of the states, but not be bound by them, in selecting the president. However, the Electoral College has never served such a role in practice. From 1796 onward, presidential electors have acted as "rubber stamps" for their parties' nominees. As of 2016, no election outcome has been determined by an elector deviating from the will of their state, and twenty-nine states and the District of Columbia have laws punishing such "faithless electors". Moreover, the National Popular Interstate Compact does not eliminate the Electoral College or affect faithless elector laws; it merely changes the way in which electors are pledged by the participating states.




Yeah, I tend to agree.

But if a part of the constitution isn't working, you amend it.
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#320024 - 01/14/20 05:25 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: Hamish Howl]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl


Yeah, I tend to agree.

But if a part of the constitution isn't working, you amend it.


But it's unlikely we will ever arrive at a sufficient number to do an amendment.
If it was JUST the EC and only the EC, it might not be such an issue but, together WITH gerrymandering, the gutting of the Voting Rights Act, AND rulings like Citizens United, it's a FOUR PRONGED weapon against the democratic process.

My argument is simple:

1. EC
2. Gerrymandering
3. Gut the VRA
4. Citizens United

You only get to pick ONE.
You DON'T get to have ALL FOUR.
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#320025 - 01/14/20 06:29 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: Hamish Howl]
rporter314 Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 7212
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
the constitution ... you amend it

Will not happen in my lifetime.

It is delusional to believe or think the Constitution can be amended for any reason any believes is reasonable in this political environment. The only changes will be activist (meaning conservative for at least the next 30 years) SC decisions which affect it. The main case in point being Heller in which J Scalia effectively crossed a line through the first phrase of the 2nd, leaving shall not be infringed. Face it, a conservative SC will mold all Constitutional issues in their own image and there is nothing anyone can do about it for the next 30 years.
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without equality there is no liberty
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#320026 - 01/14/20 06:30 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 600
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas

But it's unlikely we will ever arrive at a sufficient number to do an amendment.


Then we're [censored]. We can either put up with bullshit, or decide that our constitution really isn't functional, anymore.

Neither answer is acceptable.
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#320027 - 01/14/20 06:35 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Online   content
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 635
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl


Yeah, I tend to agree.

But if a part of the constitution isn't working, you amend it.


But it's unlikely we will ever arrive at a sufficient number to do an amendment.
If it was JUST the EC and only the EC, it might not be such an issue but, together WITH gerrymandering, the gutting of the Voting Rights Act, AND rulings like Citizens United, it's a FOUR PRONGED weapon against the democratic process.

My argument is simple:

1. EC
2. Gerrymandering
3. Gut the VRA
4. Citizens United

You only get to pick ONE.
You DON'T get to have ALL FOUR.

I have no problems with the Electoral college because we are a union of the several states. Each state as part of that union has a say. I'm totally against gerrymandering, gerrymandering is a system of our representatives choosing their voters instead of the voters choosing their representatives. But as long as both parties see that gerrymandering can give them a political advantage, it's here to stay. State legislatures could outlaw it if they wanted to. But the party in control of the state legislature doesn't want to, they want to use the power of gerrymandering to enhance their political advantage. After the 2010 census, the Republicans hollered their lungs out of the injustice of the democratic gerrymandering of Illinois and New York while the Democrats did the same when the GOP gerrymandered Texas and North Carolina. Another case where if one party does it, it's perfectly okay and right, but if the other party gerrymanders, it is wrong and evil.

I don't believe corporations are people, but money talks. Neither party wants to bite the hand that feeds it, corporations are big investors in our political system and to both parties. I say investors instead of donors because corporations expect a good return on their investment. They get it. If I had my way, I'd have an amendment that would state that only a living, breathing citizen of the United States could donate to any political candidate or party.
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It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#320028 - 01/14/20 06:41 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: perotista]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: perotista


I don't believe corporations are people, but money talks. Neither party wants to bite the hand that feeds it, corporations are big investors in our political system and to both parties. I say investors instead of donors because corporations expect a good return on their investment. They get it. If I had my way, I'd have an amendment that would state that only a living, breathing citizen of the United States could donate to any political candidate or party.


Citizens United didn't say "corporations are people".
Mitt Romney said it on the campaign trail in 2012, but CU does not say that at all.

CU basically says that "a corporation is A PERSON" ....SINGULAR.
And that, in my humble opinion, creates an entirely new species of person, one made not of flesh, blood, muscle and bone, but rather, an IMMORTAL one made of glass, steel, concrete, lawyers and unlimited money.
And these new immortal and nearly omnipotent "persons" also have none of the responsibilities of mere mortals.

Corporations are people? Yeah sure, of course they are.
But a corporation is not "A PERSON" and there's a huge difference.
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#320029 - 01/14/20 07:18 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 600
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: perotista


I don't believe corporations are people, but money talks. Neither party wants to bite the hand that feeds it, corporations are big investors in our political system and to both parties. I say investors instead of donors because corporations expect a good return on their investment. They get it. If I had my way, I'd have an amendment that would state that only a living, breathing citizen of the United States could donate to any political candidate or party.


Citizens United didn't say "corporations are people".
Mitt Romney said it on the campaign trail in 2012, but CU does not say that at all.

CU basically says that "a corporation is A PERSON" ....SINGULAR.
And that, in my humble opinion, creates an entirely new species of person, one made not of flesh, blood, muscle and bone, but rather, an IMMORTAL one made of glass, steel, concrete, lawyers and unlimited money.
And these new immortal and nearly omnipotent "persons" also have none of the responsibilities of mere mortals.

Corporations are people? Yeah sure, of course they are.
But a corporation is not "A PERSON" and there's a huge difference.


Unfortunately, the Citizen's United case was decided as constitutional, and accurately so.

The founders couldn't see everything coming.

So as odious as it is, this is another thing that would require an amendment.
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