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#320204 - 01/20/20 02:15 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10004
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Greger
It's all about that base.

_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#320205 - 01/20/20 02:39 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: logtroll]
perotista Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 450
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: perotista
I've come to the conclusion a long time ago that neither party really stands for anything except for whatever will give them a political advantage. In the end, it's all about the letter behind the name. Nothing more, nothing less.

Is that what’s commonly regarded to be blindly prejudiced? :doh:


It's all based on who's president, which party. We're talking about the debt, Democrats view adding to the debt under Bill Clinton and Obama as good, adding to the debt under G.W. Bush and Trump bad. Debt ceiling votes under Clinton and Obama, Democrats all in favor of raising it. Debt ceiling votes under G.W., Democrats totally against.

Lying to congress and obstruction of Justice for Bill Clinton, according to the democrats that was good. Trump doing the same thing, bad. Democrats favored Obama bypassing congress, against Trump doing so. Democrats loved the nuclear option when Reid first used it, hated it when McConnell expanded it and on and on and on.

either be for or against adding to the national debt regardless of who is president. Be for or against raising the debt ceiling regardless of which party hold the president. Be for or against bypassing congress regardless of which party the president is from. Be for or against the use of the nuclear option regardless of which party controls the senate and which party the president is from.

Have some consistently, take a stand on an issue and hold that stand. Don't switch stances depending on who is president or which party the president is from. That's about as wishy washy as one can get.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#320206 - 01/20/20 03:00 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10004
Loc: One of the Mexicos
The Trump Impeachment Reality ShitShow just took an entertaining turn...

Derschowitz on impeachability

Dershowitz is adamant that a crime does not have to be committed to establish an impeachable offense!!!

Perhaps he was a poor choice by Trump to be the Constitutional authority for arguing the most fundamental Trump defense?
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#320226 - 01/20/20 06:56 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: perotista]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16500
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Democrats view adding to the debt under Bill Clinton and Obama as good, adding to the debt under G.W. Bush and Trump bad. Debt ceiling votes under Clinton and Obama, Democrats all in favor of raising it. Debt ceiling votes under G.W., Democrats totally against.

It kinda depends on what you're raising the debt for. GW Bush raised it to wage two illegal wars(which continue to rage) Obama got stuck with the bill for that and Bush's crashed economy.
Trump has raised it to make the very wealthy much wealthier. I'm against that.

I would be in favor of raising it to implement socialized healthcare.

Much is made of the "tax and spend" Democrats, but little is ever said of the borrow and spend Republicans...
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#320227 - 01/20/20 07:02 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: Greger]
perotista Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 450
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Democrats view adding to the debt under Bill Clinton and Obama as good, adding to the debt under G.W. Bush and Trump bad. Debt ceiling votes under Clinton and Obama, Democrats all in favor of raising it. Debt ceiling votes under G.W., Democrats totally against.

It kinda depends on what you're raising the debt for. GW Bush raised it to wage two illegal wars(which continue to rage) Obama got stuck with the bill for that and Bush's crashed economy.
Trump has raised it to make the very wealthy much wealthier. I'm against that.

I would be in favor of raising it to implement socialized healthcare.

Much is made of the "tax and spend" Democrats, but little is ever said of the borrow and spend Republicans...

That probably depends on who you listen to. The crowd I run with condemn both. We give Bill Clinton the most credit along with the GOP congress. A president can't accomplished shrinking the deficits on their own without first getting congress to go along with him or raise the deficits and debt without congress first passing the legislation to do it.

We come down hard on Obama and now Trump. The one thing we don't do is listen to the rhetoric or if we do, we don't give it much credence as we know it is all hot air. we look at actions taken and the hard numbers. How much the debt rose from one year to the next. Rhetoric is cheap, it's actions that count.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#320240 - 01/20/20 08:10 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: perotista]
rporter314 Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 7093
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I have no party loyalty, so for me it wouldn't matter who has done what Mr Trump has done .... it is impeachable and convictable!!!!
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty
Get off the crazy train!!! ... dump Trump

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#320246 - 01/20/20 09:06 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: logtroll]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3064
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I watched Laurence Tribe talk about his 'friend' Dershowitz. Said that Dershowitz proudly stated that even if Trump returned the state of Alaska to Russia he couldn't be impeached. Dershowitz REALLY does not believe in impeachment, ie. whatever he says can be taken with a bit of salt.


Edited by jgw (01/20/20 09:07 PM)

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#320251 - 01/20/20 10:09 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: logtroll]
perotista Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 450
I wonder if either side can see how partisan impeachment is? I'll say this, the framers made removal of a president extremely hard, 2/3rds of the senate voting to remove the president or any president. The reason behind this was to stop the removal of a president for purely partisan political reasons. In other words, to remove a president it would have to be for serious crimes and be either bipartisan or nonpartisan in nature. An agreement by all or at least most involved a president must be removed.

Andrew Johnson came within one vote of removal. The votes were there for Nixon's removal. Not for Bill Clinton and so far, not for Trump. These latter two in my opinion are partisan battles for political reasons. When 90% of Democrats are for removal vs. 90% of Republicans against removal, there is no other word to describe this battle other than partisan. But this is the era of politics this nation has entered into, into polarization, ultra high partisanship, the great divide. I wonder if there is a way out of this era. Maybe not.

If I thought the removal of Trump would knock us back to our political senses, I'd be all for it. It won't. Trump is just a symptom, a result of the political era this nation has entered into. I fully expect this impeachment will be followed by an impeachment of the next president and the next if the House comes under control of the party that isn't the same as the president. As long as our ultra high partisanship reigns, it's inevitable.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#320253 - 01/20/20 10:50 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: perotista]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10004
Loc: One of the Mexicos
You can’t solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

I see a serious fallacy of false equivalence in thinking that partisanship is the issue. For instance, if I disliked Trump because of partisanship, that would mean my dislike stems from prejudice in favor of a particular cause, or a bias.

The fact is, I dislike Trump because of the qualities he manifests, including, but not limited to: misogyny, dishonesty, narcissism, ignorance, extreme greed, incompetence, sociopathy, and a few other things. There are data and facts to support my position.

One of the few things that do not trigger a strong dislike for him is his political party, which is, in all truthfulness, indeterminate by any objective measure.

My cause, or bias, if that is where my "partisan" inclination stems, is for civility, consideration, intelligence, and actions serving the good of us all. I don't think that's partisanship at all, I believe it's being a rational human being.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

Top
#320255 - 01/20/20 11:23 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: logtroll]
perotista Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 450
Originally Posted By: logtroll
You can’t solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

I see a serious fallacy of false equivalence in thinking that partisanship is the issue. For instance, if I disliked Trump because of partisanship, that would mean my dislike stems from prejudice in favor of a particular cause, or a bias.

The fact is, I dislike Trump because of the qualities he manifests, including, but not limited to: misogyny, dishonesty, narcissism, ignorance, extreme greed, incompetence, sociopathy, and a few other things. There are data and facts to support my position.

One of the few things that do not trigger a strong dislike for him is his political party, which is, in all truthfulness, indeterminate by any objective measure.

My cause, or bias, if that is where my "partisan" inclination stems, is for civility, consideration, intelligence, and actions serving the good of us all. I don't think that's partisanship at all, I believe it's being a rational human being.



Okay, I too dislike Trump. I didn't vote for him because of his obnoxious, uncouth, name calling, bullying type persona. With his personality, he's a better fit for the WWE as a wrestler than in the Oval Office as president.

But I don't carry my personal dislike of Trump to an attempt to remove him from office. Perhaps partisanship is the wrong word. But what word would you use? One political party want him gone, the other wants him to stay. One political party views Trump guilty of impeachable crimes, the other views him innocent. I may not like Trump, I may not like what he does nor what he stands for. But is that dislike of these things constitute an impeachable crime that justifies removal?

Here's what Webster says. : Partisanship - the quality or state of being partisan : strong and sometimes blind adherence to a particular party, faction, cause, or person

I do think for the most part, party animals do have blind adherence to a particular political party or in Trump's case, his followers do as do the followers of those who want him gone. It's a blind obsession for both sides.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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