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#320238 - 01/20/20 08:04 PM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: CPWILL]
Greger Online   content


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16262
Loc: Florida
Yep, war is the answer. The occupation must continue. For the good of all mankind. War is Peace.
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#320239 - 01/20/20 08:04 PM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: CPWILL]
rporter314 Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 7067
Loc: Highlands, Tx
You mean nuclear winter is coming.
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#320241 - 01/20/20 08:34 PM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: CPWILL]
Hamish Howl Offline
newbie

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 402
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

1. There is no "fixing" the Middle East because there is no "fixing" humanity. There are no "solutions", only better means to manage permanent problems.


But we aren't managing the problems, nor are our attempts making anything better. While I agree that ISIS had to go, perhaps if we stopped meddling in other peoples' business, we wouldn't have ISIS to deal with.

Quote:
2. And nothing above answers the point - you seem, respectfully to be operating from the assumption that the opposite of "bad" results in foreign affairs is "good" results. While that can - sometimes - happen, the opposite of "bad" results is usually "absolutely terrifyingly destructive" results.


Okay, I'll bite; what terrifyingly destructive results would we have suffered for just leaving Saddam Hussein in power in the first place?

Quote:
3. Though it's also convenient and easy to simply pick a single actor (say, the U.S.) and blame them for everything that happens, your narrative here is also inaccurate. The U.S. is not responsible for the Arab Spring playing out the way it did in Syria, and to the extent that our actions played a role in the rise of ISIS as a nation-state, it was our refusal to act against it until it was too late to stop it from doing so.


Isis gaining control of that region recently is a direct result of the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
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#320242 - 01/20/20 08:41 PM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: CPWILL]
jgw Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2899
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Ahhhh! You mean why in the hell didn't we get ALL THE WAY OUT? Anybody who has watched us and the middle east knew it would go south as soon as they had the 'opportunity'. Its the middle eastern way!

The solution remains - get the hell out of there, ALL THE WAY OUT! There is, absolutely, no other choice. Its kinda like Afghanistan, the grave yard of empires. Alexander the Great understood and got out, the British Empire understood and got out, even Russia got the hell out. All that being said the Americans, who have the greatest army the world has ever seen, has obviously known better so we throw 4 billion a month at them to solve the unsolvable.

Again - GET THE HELL OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST - ALL THE WAY OUT!

If/When we do that I feel bad for those who believe we will be there forever to save everybody but, there is one simple fact, its the middle east and that is a dream that will NEVER be realized. Instead we have pals like the Saudis (I will refrain from expanding on that as I have do so multiple times).

I also suspect that after we get the hell out of there we fire each and every person who has had anything to do with our staying there in the first place whoever they may be as their interests have absolutely nothing to do with the welfare of the United States of America! (Thus spake .........)


Edited by jgw (01/20/20 08:59 PM)

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#320243 - 01/20/20 08:44 PM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: pondering_it_all]
jgw Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2899
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
That one has always puzzled me. Trump always says that he is "protecting the oil". Who is he protecting it for? We don't need it, Russia is there to help (I think it was Syrian oil). I don't understand who or why.

On the other hand just about EVERYTHING about the middle east puzzles me.

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#320244 - 01/20/20 08:46 PM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: Greger]
jgw Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2899
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Unfortunately you are absolutely right. I suspect the same reason can apply to our 20 year war too. Everybody wants to cut things like medicare but cutting anything from the military and the world seems to come apart.

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#320245 - 01/20/20 08:50 PM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: CPWILL]
jgw Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2899
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Do you actually believe anything Trump says? Anything? The man is a pathological liar. Even his own attorneys wouldn't allow him to give testimony because they didn't trust him to not lie.

He says whatever comes into his head that will be approved of whoever he is speaking to. Its one of his charming ways! (making everybody happy!)

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#320259 - 01/21/20 12:48 AM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: Hamish Howl]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 157
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

1. There is no "fixing" the Middle East because there is no "fixing" humanity. There are no "solutions", only better means to manage permanent problems.


But we aren't managing the problems, nor are our attempts making anything better. While I agree that ISIS had to go, perhaps if we stopped meddling in other peoples' business, we wouldn't have ISIS to deal with.


You contradict yourself. If ISIS has "gone" (and, it hasn't, though it has been seriously degraded), then we have, indeed, found a better way to manage that problem than we had previously. Our approach in 2015-2020 led to that issue being managed better than our approach in 2012-2014 (well, mid/late 2014) did.

Again, I think you are reaching for some kind of Solve or Fix or Policy That Makes The Bad Things Stop. That's not how the world works.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: cpwill
2. And nothing above answers the point - you seem, respectfully to be operating from the assumption that the opposite of "bad" results in foreign affairs is "good" results. While that can - sometimes - happen, the opposite of "bad" results is usually "absolutely terrifyingly destructive" results.


Okay, I'll bite; what terrifyingly destructive results would we have suffered for just leaving Saddam Hussein in power in the first place?


:shrug: an interesting counterfactual, but unfortunately not a relevant one to the question being discussed - we have to make decisions here. We don't get to go back in time and say "Oh But What If". There is no "Turn Back The Clock And Make Like Nothing Has Happened" option.

Now, if we were talking about whether or not we should (say) invade and depose the Iranian regime, the experience of regime change in Iraq would be highly relevant (and a warning).

But that's not what we are talking about. We are discussing whether we should trade in our more successful 2015-2020 policy approach for our less successful 2012-2014 policy approach.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: cpwill
3. Though it's also convenient and easy to simply pick a single actor (say, the U.S.) and blame them for everything that happens, your narrative here is also inaccurate. The U.S. is not responsible for the Arab Spring playing out the way it did in Syria, and to the extent that our actions played a role in the rise of ISIS as a nation-state, it was our refusal to act against it until it was too late to stop it from doing so.


Isis gaining control of that region recently is a direct result of the 2003 invasion of Iraq.


No. ISIS gaining control of that region was a direct result of the Syrian civil war and an indirect result of the Iraqi state abusing it's Sunni minority, both of which allowed the formerly-hollowed-out AQI to metastasize and grow to a nation-state. To the extent that U.S. policy played a comparable role, it was that we did nothing (which, of course, is also a choice) to stop it.

Now, you can say that, because the 2003 invasion of Iraq left a representative government in place, that it set one of the conditions that was later leveraged to help create the space that ISIS then took advantage of. You could make similar arguments as well about Saddam's decision to keep illegal weapons, the Germans' decision to lie to us about their sourcing, Saddam's decision to invade Kuwait, Sykes-Picot redrawing a map they didn't understand, and a caravan security guard having visions out in the desert roughly 1400+ years ago, all of which set conditions that helped to shape the conflict.

It is a common, but not a terribly insightful sort of history that travels backwards only until they reach a significant action by a particular actor and declares that - AHA! - History Starts HERE!


Edited by CPWILL (01/21/20 12:51 AM)
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#320263 - 01/21/20 01:06 AM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: CPWILL]
Greger Online   content


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16262
Loc: Florida
I'm not sure I much give a rat's ass what happens in the Middle East. They're adults and capable of governing themselves, there is no constitutional mandate that suggests we need to force them to do it one way or another.
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#320266 - 01/21/20 03:19 AM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 157
Originally Posted By: Greger
I'm not sure I much give a rat's ass what happens in the Middle East. They're adults and capable of governing themselves, there is no constitutional mandate that suggests we need to force them to do it one way or another.


As the old saying goes, you may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.

Obama probably would have continued to delay taking serious action against ISIS. But then they started launching attacks in the West. (shrug)


Edited by CPWILL (01/21/20 03:20 AM)
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