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#320327 - 01/21/20 08:55 PM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: Greger]
Hamish Howl Offline
newbie

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 385
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
you may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.

No, war doesn't give a feck about me. Your fascination with it and feverish endorsement of it is cute though. Do you believe violence is the answer to all problems?


Violence is always a solution. It is what humans do best.

However, there is appropriate violence, and there is basically worship of violence, and then there is violence porn, which is pretty much a working description of the USA's attitude towards war since the end of WWII.
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#320328 - 01/21/20 08:58 PM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: jgw]
Hamish Howl Offline
newbie

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 385
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: jgw
I think he is probably right. The wars in the middle east is based, basically, on the simple fact that Sunnis and Shia have been having a war for over 1000 years. its actually that simple.


Christians managed their exact same war in just 30 years, but they were way, way more efficient about it, managing to kill 28% of everyone in Germany in that time period.

By the end, the Catholic armies were almost entirely composed of Protestant mercenaries, and vice versa.

Humans are dumber than a bag of hammers, regardless of what any particular wrappers in which they are packaged.
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#320330 - 01/21/20 09:04 PM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: Hamish Howl]
rporter314 Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 7067
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
Violence is always a solution. It is what humans do best.

Maybe humans should be considered a failed experiment???
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#320334 - 01/21/20 09:23 PM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: rporter314]
Hamish Howl Offline
newbie

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 385
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: rporter314
Quote:
Violence is always a solution. It is what humans do best.

Maybe humans should be considered a failed experiment???


Well, yes. Once we're extinct.

That is the final proof of concept.
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#320335 - 01/21/20 09:26 PM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: jgw]
Hamish Howl Offline
newbie

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 385
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Aliens don't talk to us. There are two possible reasons why.

1. There are no aliens, or at least none advanced enough to say hello from way the [censored] over there, and

2. Who wants to talk to what is essentially a perpetually irritated colony of bullet ants? I mean, we set off nuclear devices in our own atmosphere. Ignoring us/hiding from us are survival imperatives.
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#320339 - 01/22/20 01:19 AM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 157
Originally Posted By: Greger
CP has made it clear he does not believe oil is a factor in the Middle Eastern wars.


That is not at all what I have argued. I have argued that we are not currently in Iraq "because of the oil", which is accurate. We are in Iraq because ISIS began to launch and inspire attacks in the West, and so the Obama administration finally decided to re-insert relatively smaller numbers of troops into Iraq and later Syria in order to train, advise, and assist local forces in decimating that particular terror-state with a heavy additional assist from U.S. firepower and financing.
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#320340 - 01/22/20 01:24 AM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: rporter314]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 157
Originally Posted By: rporter314
Quote:
Obama probably would have continued to delay taking serious action against ISIS. But then they started launching attacks in the West.
One speculation. Another would be Pres Obama faced a strong headwind from Republicans regarding US intervention in places other than Iraq (note this may have been for a variety of reasons, almost all of which were simple justifications for the US to be on the border of Iran and opportunities in oil). When Pres Obama gave his infamous (according to Republicans) JV answer about ISIS, the current IC assessment was ISIS was nothing more than a small group in the desert


Respectfully, this is incorrect. Recommend for example you look up the CENTCOM scandal over this.

What happened is that the Administration spent about a year and a half pushing back on the IC trying to tell them that ISIS was a large and growing threat, and excluding senior enterprise leaders who told them the truth on the matter from future meetings.

Quote:
(too bad they didn't have good intel). I suspect Pres Obama would have been more willing than you believe had he had a more accurate assessment of the threat.


I know people who were involved in that effort, and their unanimous (and, in several cases, quite bitter) opinion is that your suspicion would be sadly incorrect. President Obama did not want to go back into Iraq after claiming credit for pulling us out and he did not want to hear about things that may require him to do so.


Edited by CPWILL (01/22/20 01:30 AM)
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#320341 - 01/22/20 01:30 AM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: Hamish Howl]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 157
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
There have been exactly two (2) ISIS attacks in America. One miserable failure that killed exactly no people, and a husband and wife team that killed 14 people in a mass shooting in 2015.

This is worth an endless, non-stop military engagement?


Well, the West is a bit more than just CONUS; we tend to respond to attacks on our Allies as well (and yes, they are there with us in the WoT, even if you don't read about them as much). Is it worth a campaign to take out ISIS to stop attacks in the West?

Well, Obama thought it was - though I would imagine that was more the thing that tipped him over the edge, as it probably piled on top of the genocide, mass-enslavement and rape of others, and general carnage that they were enacting.

Personally, I think he should have acted earlier, just as I think Trump should have acted earlier. Both men chose to put off a hard decision, and let the situation worsen before they did something about it. Obama learned from his mistake - I don't think Trump has (but it's early yet and I may be wrong - we'll see).

Quote:
I can see retribution strikes, but not a "forever war".


Retribution strikes against VEOs tend to have little to no impact on future attacks (though there are specific instances in which a campaign of events can have impact, those conditions don't really apply here). If your goal is "no more attacks in the West" or "No more wiping out local tribes or ethnicities you don't like", pinprick retribution strikes doesn't really take away those capabilities, or - generally - the will to use them.
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#320342 - 01/22/20 01:34 AM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 157
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
you may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.

No, war doesn't give a feck about me.


Cool. Ask Messr's Kellog and Briand how well that attitude is gonna work for you.

You don't stop evil by ignoring it.

Quote:
Your fascination with it and feverish endorsement of it is cute though. Do you believe violence is the answer to all problems?


Not at all - it's not the answer to most problems. But there are problems to which it is part of the best answer we have to date.
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#320343 - 01/22/20 01:40 AM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 157
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Greger
I'm not sure I much give a rat's ass what happens in the Middle East. They're adults and capable of governing themselves, there is no constitutional mandate that suggests we need to force them to do it one way or another.


As the old saying goes, you may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.


In the Middle East? I hardly think anything is of interest to us aside from oil and Israel, in that order too, by the way.


Both of those are important. From a naked national interest standpoint, so is destroying, defeating, or detering entities which would launch attacks against us or our partners and allies. Similarly (though less so), is destroying defeating or deterring entities which would threaten to destablize key pieces of strategic terrain or our partners and allies (such as, for example, key shipping lanes or sending millions of refugees flooding into Europe).

Internal to the Obama administration, Samantha Powers also led the charge arguing that we had a responsibility to - where we could - intervene to reduce or forestall mass human tragedy, such as what we had seen in Rwanda. I am sympathetic to the argument that, while that is not something we have to do (as it is not a national interest), it is something that in some cases we should do, as it's the right thing to do.

Quote:
If we were actually paying the TRUE cost of our oil, and that means tacking the cost of our military misadventures to the pump instead of through a series of largely unnamed taxes, you'd see support for the ME dip dramatically overnight because that pump price would be about eleven bucks a gallon overnight.


An interesting claim. If you have support work on that, I'd like to see it. Does it take into account the massive explosion in U.S.-based production that would result?

Quote:
SO, war is NOT interested in me,


Fascinating. Have you informed ISIS and al-Qa'ida of this? They will be surprised to hear it.

Quote:
OIL companies are interested in war.


Depends on the oil company I suppose. Those in the war zone, probably not so much. Those producing elsewhere who now can capture a larger share of the market? Maybe?


Edited by CPWILL (01/22/20 01:41 AM)
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