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#320121 - 01/18/20 02:36 PM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: rporter314]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 201
Originally Posted By: rporter314
Quote:
what, exactly, do you think it is Iran has been doing, if not targeting our personnel?
Or one could ask what is the US doing in Iraq, threatening Iranian sovereignty?


Only if one did not understand the difference between those two countries. American troops in Iraq do not threaten Iranian sovereignty. They mitigate Iranian regional dominance.

Quote:
So the question is would Iran be targeting US military personnel if the US was no int Iraq? or Afghanistan?


Well they were doing it before we went into those places, and have continued to do it since, so, the answer is "yes".

However, I reject the premise of the question (as it is often posed). Iran is not entitled to kill Americans simply because we responded to the 9/11 attacks by removing the Taliban, and then tried to actually help Afghanistan form a government, instead of merely leaving it in blood and destruction and chaos.

Quote:
We have been at war with Iran since 1979 and only the Iranians seem know it.


True.
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#320122 - 01/18/20 02:42 PM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: pondering_it_all]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 201
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
The main problem is that killing Suleimani sets up an Iranian assassination of an American Secretary of Defense or Commander-In-Chief as tit-for-tat in the eyes of all the other countries of the world. What's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander. Which Republicans don't seem to understand.


Again, this point, while sounding detached and reasonable, is (respectfully) deliberately ignorant of some rather key context points:

1. Soleimani was orchestrating attacks on American diplomatic facilities and personnel. Until we struck Soleimani, U.S. military leadership was not doing likewise to Iranian personnel or diplomatic facilities.

2. Iran is already trying to kill U.S. officers and leadership, and has been for years.

So, it is not that we need worry we have started a campaign of tit-for-tat. It is that we finally responded with a tat to years of their tits. wink

Quote:
They do stuff they would scream about if the Democrats did to them, with no thoughts about next week, or next year when power shifts the other way.


Hey, that's funny smile You sound like me, back during the Obama Administration.

Quote:
Like refusing to vote on Merrick Garland. Do they think they can do that and not have it done back to them? Or changing Senate rules so a simple majority is all that's required to get their way?


Fun Fact - Twas a gentleman named Harry Reid who changed that rule wink

Majorities on both sides tend to have a weird tendency to forget history, and assume they are permanent.


Edited by CPWILL (01/18/20 02:43 PM)
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#320132 - 01/18/20 06:08 PM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10004
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Trump stated that Soleimani was the worst terrorist on the planet, as a primary reason for taking him out. Yet Soleimani and the Quds are not on the Global Terrorist Index (top ten list, at least). Trump was lying. Why?

Another curiosity is that ISIS was #2 on the list, and the Quds were effective at controlling ISIS. Weird that they actually have anti-terrorist cred.

My last comment is that I can't seem to find through Google specific examples of Soleimani terrorist acts. I'm not saying he didn't do bad stuff, but I have not found any descriptions of such. That seems unusual since he was so bad that Trump needed to assassinate him to protect us.
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#320136 - 01/18/20 06:35 PM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16492
Loc: Florida
Suliemani's assassination had nothing to do with any war on terror.

His name was pulled out of a hat by Trump's generally ill-informed advisers as a rah rah rah wrap yourself in the flag distraction from impeachment.

The US has actively been trying to start a war with Iran for years.

John Bolten has been actively pursuing that goal for years and was recently added to Trump's top tier of the best people.

Iranians don't like their own government but they have not forgotten the the good ole USA is the one that deposed their democratic government and installed a monarch to rule over them in 1953. The result of that meddling is what got them the revolution and their current theocracy.

US imperialism turned their weaker neighbor(Iraq) into a desolate sandpit and they are now using it as a staging area to attack Iran.
Control of the Persian Gulf and the Straits of Hormuz is the reason, not "terrorism".

Pretending anything else is going on is purely a flight of fantasy.
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#320140 - 01/18/20 07:15 PM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16492
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I can't seem to find through Google specific examples of Soleimani terrorist acts.


That's because there are none. The entire narrative seems to be made up out of whole cloth. Iran has no reason to be our friend and working against Saudi/American interests is simply in the best interest of Iranians.

There is no "war on terrorism" there is only the war for oil.
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#320149 - 01/19/20 03:18 AM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 201
Originally Posted By: Greger
Suliemani's assassination had nothing to do with any war on terror.

His name was pulled out of a hat by Trump's generally ill-informed advisers as a rah rah rah wrap yourself in the flag distraction from impeachment.


Respectfully, you have no idea what you are talking about, here, and appear to be making this up because it validates the low opinion you have and wish to reinforce of an administration that, agreeably, often makes terrible foreign policy decisions.

Quote:
The US has actively been trying to start a war with Iran for years.


Incorrect. Were we attempting to do so, we would have actually - well - done so when Iran gave us ample cause to ramp up last summer/early fall. Instead, we decided to pull back, they interpreted that as weakness, and so they continued to ratchet up their provocations.

Quote:
John Bolten has been actively pursuing that goal for years and was recently added to Trump's top tier of the best people.


And then fired mostly because he had the attitude you are accusing Trump of holding, and burned a lot of his credibility with POTUS over it.

Donald Trump has been pushing - irresponsibly - for us to rush out of Afghanistan, and pushing - irresponsibly - for us to get out of Syria. Where he has been restrained from simply pulling the plug on the Middle East, it has been mostly due to the efforts of the intelligent and experienced foreign policy experts around him (former Secretary Mattis, for example), who often eventually pay for their intervention with their jobs.

I realize that Orange Man Bad is an organizing principle for many on the left, but the degree to which the claim that he is a pro-interventionist war-mongerer seeking to expand our military adventures in the middle east is utterly divorced from the available evidence is just...

It reminds me of the early internet fools who would assure me - in the same post! - that George W Bush was a complete and utter incompetent idiot, but also an incredibly dark genius, capably manipulating world events for his own, pre-known, evil ends.

Quote:
Iranians don't like their own government but they have not forgotten the the good ole USA is the one that deposed their democratic government and installed a monarch to rule over them in 1953. The result of that meddling is what got them the revolution and their current theocracy.


This is also incorrect. Recommend The Unthinkable Revolution for a well-written and accessible breakdown of what we know of how, where, when, and why revolutions happen and succeed, and how those theories apply to the Iranian case.


Edited by CPWILL (01/19/20 03:20 AM)
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#320170 - 01/19/20 06:16 PM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: CPWILL]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16492
Loc: Florida
My opinions have absolutely nothing to do with Donald Trump. This all started long before Republicans proved me right about them by electing him.

Your take on the whole thing is amusingly consistent with Republican propaganda, but you'll have to pardon me for not buying into that whole story.

I believe global warming is real and man made too, so my opinions are likely beneath you and unworthy of response.

Every day Republicans get another chance to change my mind about them. Every day they reinforce the disdain I feel for them.

Oil. It's about the oil. We are the terrorists, they the victims.
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#320175 - 01/19/20 07:48 PM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3057
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
At the risk of repeating myself. I think we should get out of that area of the world, completely out! It has, over the years, cost us huge amounts of treasure (Afghanistan, right now, is costing something like 4 billion a month). There have been no successes - NONE! They have nothing we need. Not one administration, not one, has had any success doing a damn thing there. Its just an American money pit, nothing more, nothing less.

GET US THE HELL OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST! (its just not a place to do good works - it doesn't work)

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#320184 - 01/19/20 09:40 PM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16492
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: jgw
At the risk of repeating myself. I think we should get out of that area of the world, completely out! It has, over the years, cost us huge amounts of treasure (Afghanistan, right now, is costing something like 4 billion a month). There have been no successes - NONE! They have nothing we need. Not one administration, not one, has had any success doing a damn thing there. Its just an American money pit, nothing more, nothing less.

GET US THE HELL OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST! (its just not a place to do good works - it doesn't work)


:applaud:

You sound just like Bernie Sanders! He wants outa there too. The corporatists don't. They're invested in the military industrial complex, you know how many jobs would be lost if we weren't producing, using, and selling weapons over there? Or, perhaps more importantly how much corporate profit would be lost? Trump just gave the industry a huge boost with his murder of General Soliemani.
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#320185 - 01/19/20 09:47 PM Re: iranian general qassem soleimani [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 201
Originally Posted By: Greger
My opinions have absolutely nothing to do with Donald Trump.


Then you are unfortunately blind to process knowledge as well as material knowledge regarding the background of this particular decision. POTUS is the one who has to approve actions like this.

Quote:
This all started long before Republicans proved me right about them by electing him.


Republicans nominating someone who thought all the wars in the Middle East were stupid and who said he would negotiate our way out of them with his super-duper-extra-amazing-negotiation-skills confirmed your suspicion that they were warmongerers?

Fascinating. Does the democrat nomination of Hillary Clinton prove that they are misogynists who will never give a woman a chance?

Quote:
Your take on the whole thing is amusingly consistent with Republican propaganda, but you'll have to pardon me for not buying into that whole story.


On the contrary, if you will go back and read you will note that I am consistently critical of Trump's foreign policy where it goes astray (as it so. often. does. when he gets involved). His earlier weakness and failure to react to provocation helped get us to where we are today.

Quote:
I believe global warming is real and man made too, so my opinions are likely beneath you and unworthy of response.


Not at all. Many intelligent people believe as you do. Personally I find it completely plausible that mankinds' activities are having a warming effect on the world, and simply note that:

A) Those who believe in complete anthropogenic warming keep making predictions that get disproven. In science, as I dimly recall, when a hypothesis' predictions are consistently disproven, the hypothesis is supposed to be rejected.

B) It is extremely unlikely that we understand the complex interactions that drive that process with the confidence levels that those who argue most forthrightly for complete anthropogenic warming claim.


.....and, additionally, when I'm at my more cynical, I note that:

C) The activists and leaders in that movement don't seem to actually take the threat they are pitching as seriously as they claim, as they keep taking personal actions that would make the problem they describe worse, and reject technologies that would make the problem they describe better.

Quote:
Every day Republicans get another chance to change my mind about them. Every day they reinforce the disdain I feel for them.


Yes. That's called Confirmation Bias.

Quote:
Oil. It's about the oil. We are the terrorists, they the victims.


If it was all about the oil, we'd be taking the oil, as Trump so irresponsibly and foolishly suggested. You'll note that not only are we not doing this, but have become net exporters. We aren't in Iraq or Afghanistan today because of oil, but because of terrorism.


Edited by CPWILL (01/19/20 10:00 PM)
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