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#318469 - 11/30/19 06:08 AM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: rporter314]
Hamish Howl Offline
newbie

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 487
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: rporter314
We should dissolve the union, break into the various states, and become 50 3rd rate countries. We deserve it.


That's going to happen within the next 10 years or so, anyway.

The United States have reached a level of complexity that makes it increasingly impossible to govern as a single entity.
_________________________
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#318472 - 11/30/19 01:06 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 450
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
If the Senate vote to convict and remove could be held in secret, we wouldn't even be having this discussion, we'd be measuring the drapes in the Oval Office.

I think you're wrong. I think we have more than enough secrecy in government than to let our legislatures conduct their or shall I say the peoples business in secret also. I'm sure they would love that, no one could ever be held accountable.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#318473 - 11/30/19 01:10 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: Hamish Howl]
perotista Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 450
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: perotista

Toe the party line.



If the other party is functionally insane, that is not an unsound philosophy.


Politics is always about perspectives. Personal perspectives. I have no doubt most republicans think the Democrats are insane and their philosophy is totally unAmerican.

from my peach, I think both parties have crossed the insanity line.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#318474 - 11/30/19 01:19 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: Hamish Howl]
perotista Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 450
Take the Northeast down to Virginia, add the west coast, throw in a couple of states around the great lakes, you have your division. The rest is the other country.

I remember a time when outside of the solid democratic south every other state was in play when it came to presidential elections. I've been working on my senate, house and presidential forecasts on another site, I find at the moment, only five states that can't be placed in one or the other column. Arizona, Florida, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin. These are in my mind, as of today, the only toss up states on the map.

Polarization has become a fact of life in our politics today. We have in my opinion reached the point where political parties have become much more important than the country as a whole. So division may end up being the only remaining solution.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#318477 - 11/30/19 04:04 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: perotista]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15427
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
If the Senate vote to convict and remove could be held in secret, we wouldn't even be having this discussion, we'd be measuring the drapes in the Oval Office.

I think you're wrong. I think we have more than enough secrecy in government than to let our legislatures conduct their or shall I say the peoples business in secret also. I'm sure they would love that, no one could ever be held accountable.


Of course. I know, that is the problem. They are paralyzed with fear of the Trump base, which isn't large enough to reelect the guy but certainly large enough to throw the individual Congress critters out of office.
And with a job as cushy as that one, nobody wants to leave. The gravy train and the power is more important to them than the fate of the country's future.
I was mocking their lack of accountability and their lack of balls, because deep down I am sure that at least twenty Republican secretly agree that Trump's excesses are damaging our democracy and respect for the law itself.
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#318484 - 11/30/19 07:45 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 450
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
If the Senate vote to convict and remove could be held in secret, we wouldn't even be having this discussion, we'd be measuring the drapes in the Oval Office.

I think you're wrong. I think we have more than enough secrecy in government than to let our legislatures conduct their or shall I say the peoples business in secret also. I'm sure they would love that, no one could ever be held accountable.


Of course. I know, that is the problem. They are paralyzed with fear of the Trump base, which isn't large enough to reelect the guy but certainly large enough to throw the individual Congress critters out of office.
And with a job as cushy as that one, nobody wants to leave. The gravy train and the power is more important to them than the fate of the country's future.
I was mocking their lack of accountability and their lack of balls, because deep down I am sure that at least twenty Republican secretly agree that Trump's excesses are damaging our democracy and respect for the law itself.

Perhaps, doubtful, but perhaps. There was a time when most states had one R and one D representing them in the senate. That's no longer the case. Most deep red states have two R's and deep blue states 2 D's with very little play among the rest. the deep red states are convinced Trump has done nothing wrong, the deep blue states that Trump has done everything wrong. That is the nature of our present political situation.

How many are split? Alabama, Arizona, Colorado, Maine, Montana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Wisconsin. that's 9, I can remember when 30 states were split between the parties, the main exception was the solid democratic south.

I really don't think a secret vote would change much.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#318485 - 11/30/19 07:48 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 450
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
If the Senate vote to convict and remove could be held in secret, we wouldn't even be having this discussion, we'd be measuring the drapes in the Oval Office.

I think you're wrong. I think we have more than enough secrecy in government than to let our legislatures conduct their or shall I say the peoples business in secret also. I'm sure they would love that, no one could ever be held accountable.


Of course. I know, that is the problem. They are paralyzed with fear of the Trump base, which isn't large enough to reelect the guy but certainly large enough to throw the individual Congress critters out of office.
And with a job as cushy as that one, nobody wants to leave. The gravy train and the power is more important to them than the fate of the country's future.
I was mocking their lack of accountability and their lack of balls, because deep down I am sure that at least twenty Republican secretly agree that Trump's excesses are damaging our democracy and respect for the law itself.

And here's the public perception of the impeachment hearings, process so far.

Public response to impeachment hearings since their beginning. Comparing Trumpís approval ratings, percentage of those who want Trump impeached and removed along with those who donít. As you can see Trumpís approval rating hasnít really moved an inch. Then there is the party break down. Democrats totally for impeachment and removal, Republicans totally against. Independents split right down the middle. This impeachment isnít an America battle. Itís a battle between parties. One party who has wanted Trump gone since the day after the election, the other fighting for him to stay. With the percentages listed below, one can only come to the conclusion this is purely, 100% a very partisan battle. Whoís right and whoís wrong, let history judge.
Impeachment hearings began on 13 Nov 2019 vs. 30 Nov 2019
Trumpís approval 13 Nov 43.9%, 26 Nov 43.5%

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html

13 Nov Democrats for impeachment and removal 82%, 30 Nov Democrats for impeachment and removal 87%.
13 Nov Republicans for impeachment and removal 12%, 30 Nov Republicans for impeachment and removal 9%.
13 Nov Independents for impeachment and removal 38%, 30 Nov Independents for impeachment and removal 44%.
13 Nov Democrats against impeachment and removal 6%, 30 Nov Democrats against impeachment and removal 8%.
13 Nov Republicans against impeachment and removal 80%, 30 Nov Republicans against impeachment and removal 88%.
13 Nov Independents against impeachment and removal 39%, 30 Nov Independents against impeachment and removal 45%.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls...trump-6957.html
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#318486 - 11/30/19 07:51 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Online   content


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16505
Loc: Florida
Quote:
deep down I am sure that at least twenty Republican secretly agree that Trump's excesses are damaging our democracy and respect for the law itself.

Oh, I'm certain of it! But let's not forget that they consider it a goal to be attained at all costs. A feature...not a flaw. Plutocracy disguised as democracy is the aim. Donald Trump is the Perfect Plutocrat....here, this is a good example of it...

_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#318487 - 11/30/19 08:53 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: perotista]
Greger Online   content


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16505
Loc: Florida
Quote:
one can only come to the conclusion this is purely, 100% a very partisan battle.


And the argument can be made that practically every facet of our government has been reduced to purely 100% very partisan battles.
Practically every facet of our lives.

I'm down with the revolution, bring out the torches and pitchforks!

As long as my check shows up each month we're all good.

No one despises Donald Trump and the Republican Party more than I do. But still, I don't consider myself a "partisan". I've got no particular love for Democrats and I don't find this Ukraine thing to be a big deal. It's a Benghazi Her Emails thing, Lock Her Up!

But the Democratic Base was screaming for it.

So here we go, even though no laws were demonstrably broken as far as the jury is concerned they press on with their case.

This is Donald Trump, the third generation leader of a white-collar criminal family. He is probably guilty of innumerable crimes that would disqualify him from the presidency. But just as Donald Trump has proven himself to be ruthless in digging up dirt on his opponents he also covers up his own dirt completely. Donald Trump is a financial criminal and no one will ever be able to prove it.

He's where he is because he's good at what he does.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#318488 - 11/30/19 09:04 PM Re: The Impeachment of Donald trump [Re: rporter314]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9533
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
We should dissolve the union, break into the various states, and become 50 3rd rate countries.


49 3rd rate countries and my country that would have the fifth largest economy in the world. Hardly "third-rate". We would be better off economically, as would many blue states. Actually, many states would form new unions.

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