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#320586 - 01/26/20 02:08 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9985
Loc: One of the Mexicos
I think CP is saying something like the minimum wage is an attempt to put a bandaid on femoral artery puncture.

Restricted as we are by our present socio-political structure, that may be the best treatment we can muster. Is it better than no treatment for poverty and income equality? That's debatable, but it's a debate that is taking the place of earnest triage.

Maybe the twin delusions of growth and competition are what need the cure?
_________________________
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#320588 - 01/26/20 02:40 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42479
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
But the unemployment rate looks so good! Just because people can't pay rent and food at the same time, is no reason to complain.

Republicans like it when people have three jobs for some reason. coffee
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#320589 - 01/26/20 03:18 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: CPWILL]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42479
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
The middle class, as they say, has indeed "shrunk" - mostly because people in the middle class moved into the upper middle class, which has swelled as a portion of the populace...

There you go citing opinion as opposed to scientific fact, again. rolleyes

Per your opinion piece:

Quote:
...from 61 percent of US households in 1971 to only 50 percent in 2015, when middle class is defined as households earning between two-thirds and twice the median household income.


The company that I work for top pay scale which everyone non-management gets once they have worked for the company 12,000 hrs is $27.15. On the surface, that's seems like a good wage. Prior to that, starting is $16.00 and increases are graduated up to $27.15 in increments.

The company is in the Seattle-Tacoma area.



Per the above 2018 Credit Karma chart, based upon the US Census, the medium income for Seattle-Tacoma metro the medium income is $87,910.

The annual income for $27.15/hr is $54,300, hardly close to the medium household income for Seattle-Tacoma. Two-thirds of $87,910 is $58,020. My wage doesn't even meet the 2/3'rds criteria.

Even if a significant other works for the same company and gets the same wage would that household be over the medium income for Seattle-Tacoma. In my anecdotal example, it would take two incomes to meet what the US Census Bureaus medium household income for Seattle-Tacoma and that's certainly not the upper-class wage income bullshyte that you're trying to pass-off. smile
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#320590 - 01/26/20 03:27 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 197
Originally Posted By: logtroll
I think CP is saying something like the minimum wage is an attempt to put a bandaid on femoral artery puncture


Sort of. In some cases, I think it's more like treating such a puncture with leeches. It exacerbates the problem for those (our most vulnerable and poor) I think we should always take care we not do more damage to.

Quote:
Restricted as we are by our present socio-political structure, that may be the best treatment we can muster.


That may be correct. There have been several case studies showing that people support or oppose policy changes based largely on what political party or candidate it is coming from, rather than their actual assessment of it. That's a bad sign for any possibility of significant reform in any area frown

Quote:
Is it better than no treatment for poverty and income equality? That's debatable, but it's a debate that is taking the place of earnest triage.

Maybe the twin delusions of growth and competition are what need the cure?


Growth tends to lift most boats pretty well. Trump is an inchoate liar and braggart, but he's not wrong when he points out that wages for workers have grown faster under him than wages for managers, or that wages for the bottom decile have grown faster than wages for the top decile.

[img:left]https://i1.wp.com/www.nationalreview.com...w=774&ssl=1[/img]



So, I'm not against it as a positive. I do think it's not a perfect strategy, because it leaves you reliant on something fairly difficult to predict, and politicians tend to build in ridiculous assumptions to make their models work.

I think we should get rid of the minimum wage entirely in order to allow anyone - regardless of their skill set or experience - to find work, and expand and make the EITC a monthly reimbursable, or institute a NIT to cover everything we currently try to cover with our hodgepodge system. That way we maximize opportunity available to those most in need of it, while keeping them at a standard of living we find more acceptable.


Edited by CPWILL (01/26/20 03:34 PM)
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#320594 - 01/26/20 04:15 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9985
Loc: One of the Mexicos
That's nice, but I'm thinking if there should be an economic system that does not have poverty as a feature.

And, how high can a tide rise before it goes out again? What if someone doesn't have a boat?
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#320602 - 01/26/20 07:44 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 197
Originally Posted By: logtroll
That's nice, but I'm thinking if there should be an economic system that does not have poverty as a feature.

And, how high can a tide rise before it goes out again? What if someone doesn't have a boat?


Poverty is both relative and the natural state of humankind. Not having poverty as a feature requires not having humans.

As for a rising tide, well, I think we have no idea, and I don't agree with your presumption that there is a cap on human ingenuity's ability to improve upon what we already know.
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#320603 - 01/26/20 08:16 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: Phil Hoskins]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3032
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I suggest that the entire argument will be moot in about 10 years. Its kinda interesting. Science Fiction, for instance, just about universally never touch on unskilled jobs because its unlikely there will be any. The fast food places, for instance, are automating as fast as they can. Its said that McDonald's, right now have fully automated operations being tested.

Automation is a simple fact. I can remember the good old days when being a welder in an auto factory was a full time, well paying, job. That job no longer exists. You can go down a very long line of jobs that have been automated out of existence. Now they are going after existing low paying jobs. The internet is already working their magic on retail sails as well.

It used to be that low paying jobs were considered short time jobs until you got your stuff together. Now, somehow, they have become permanent full time, low paying lifetime employment. That is, I guess, part of the problem?

Oh, Science fiction ofter also refers to actual humans doing service jobs as being well paid and seeing actual humans doing something means the establishment is VERY expensive.

Just saying.................

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#320612 - 01/26/20 11:35 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16457
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I'm thinking if there should be an economic system that does not have poverty as a feature.

There is one and it's working all over the world. We call it social democracy. We don't call it democratic socialism because that is a step farther to the left, and a step too far in my mind. But that's just me.
If he were around to argue the point, I imagine that Chunkstyle would be more in favor of democratic socialism. He's more into worker ownership than I am. My interpretation of Marxian science tells me that once social democracy becomes the norm then democratic socialism should logically follow. It's a matter of social evolution, not something that can be forced. (See the Soviet Union, Cuba, Venezuela)

There are working models among the Scandinavian nations where the happiest people in the world live. Even though the weather sucks frightfully! Other nations are taking notes and trying to emulate them.
Much as nations once looked to this one as a model, they now look at Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland and others.
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#320615 - 01/26/20 11:55 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9985
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Poverty is both relative and the natural state of humankind. Not having poverty as a feature requires not having humans.

You state that as a fact. Documentation, please?

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
As for a rising tide, well, I think we have no idea, and I don't agree with your presumption that there is a cap on human ingenuity's ability to improve upon what we already know.

So you think that the planet is becoming healthier and more livable, with plenty of clean water, an endless supply of cheap and polluting energy, global warming is a myth, and plenty of food and resources for all? I believe you are wanting a higher percentage of people in the natural state of poverty...

I see now why you are a Conservative (which, of course, means non-conserving).
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#320626 - 01/27/20 03:53 AM Re: Minimum wage [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16457
Loc: Florida
Never, in all the history of humanity, have so many had so much.

And never have so many run the risk of losing everything they have.
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