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#320779 - 01/30/20 01:54 AM Re: Minimum wage [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16505
Loc: Florida
Quote:
The candidate is named Yang. He is a technocrat and as far as I can see, he's the only candidate of either party looking 10, 20, and 30 years down the road.

Bingo!

If Joe Biden chose Yang as a running mate I'd vote for his ass in a heartbeat.
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#320784 - 01/30/20 02:10 AM Re: Minimum wage [Re: Phil Hoskins]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9533
Loc: North San Diego County
Really. That would be a great compromise. Biden to get all the Crusty Olde Democrats and then Yang can gradually take over and get the job eight years later. 16 years of running the country like we care about it.

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#320816 - 01/30/20 10:19 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 201
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
...it pretends that the money comes from nowhere ...

Well, that’s clearly wrong. Everyone knows it comes from debt.


So you think they'd include in their cost/benefit assessments the cost of raising that debt, of pulling that liquidity from the private market, and the cost of maintaining that debt....

....but, generally, they don't. They only count the "And Once This Magical Money Comes From Nowhere-In-Particular, Here's How We Can Spend It!", which is, obviously - as you suggest - a poor way to go about it.
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#320818 - 01/30/20 10:31 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10007
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
So you think they'd include in their cost/benefit assessments the cost of raising that debt, of pulling that liquidity from the private market, and the cost of maintaining that debt....

Who would do that?
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“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#320838 - 01/31/20 02:45 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10007
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Quote:
A THOUGHT FOR TODAY:
To blame the poor for subsisting on welfare has no justice unless we are also willing to judge every rich member of society by how productive he or she is. Taken individual by individual, it is likely that there's more idleness and abuse of government favors among the economically privileged than among the ranks of the disadvantaged. -Norman Mailer, author (31 Jan 1923-2007)
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#320839 - 01/31/20 03:30 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17336
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Giving tax money to rich folks is not a way to stimulate the economy. Even Laffer said it was a curve, not a straight line: When top tax rates are above 70%, it can increase government revenue. When rates are lower, and they are much lower now, cutting taxes more just leads to more debt.

If you want to stimulate the economy, there is all sorts of crumbling infrastructure that needs to be fixed. And even untrained idiots can work a shovel. They will go out and spend every dollar you pay them, and the money will flow though multiple people before it winds up in the hands of a rich man.
That is the most fundamental truth about economic activity that is routinely ignored.

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#320841 - 01/31/20 03:58 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: CPWILL]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17336
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
No one (that I'm aware of) is arguing in favor of the Government going around handing rich people money. What is being argued is that changing long term incentives by not dis-incentivizing productive behavior through higher tax rates causes people to increase that productive behavior.
Respectfully, my friend, you are either not paying attention, or are really into self-deception. The 2017 tax act was expressly premised on giving money to rich people to stimulate the economy. It's in the title.

Secondly (as in your second sentence), you say that as if it were not a tautology. Reducing taxes on income is effectively giving them money. What is really going on with that is paying NOW for a speculative future benefit. You clearly misapprehend the import of the Laffer curve.

Indeed, we're are just now entering the "Trump" economy, and it is looking bleak. The economy is already slowing, and we may now be looking at a recession in 9-12 months. Fourth-quarter GDP rose only 2.1% and full-year 2019 posts slowest growth in three years at 2.3% (CNBC). Just after the election.

Yesterday I went with a friend to Fry's electronics (think Costco for computer nerds, if you've never been, it's that big) to buy a new video card and computer monitor. There were literally 4 cars in the parking lot. We thought it might be closed. Inside fully 80%+ of the shelves were empty. Not low, empty. No video cards, no monitors. 4 televisions, all floor models. They had signs up around the store proclaiming that they were not liquidating. It was shocking. We asked what was going on and were told that they were "renegotiating all of their vendor contracts in light of the trade war." The few available components had doubled in price. That's the Trump economy, in a nutshell. It's just about to hit. Hard.

In other words, your words are wrong. In the Republican economy, consumption is penalized and that is what slows an economy. We're distinctivizing exactly the behavior that stimulates an economy, and rewarding behavior that is a drain on it.

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#320915 - 02/02/20 05:12 AM Re: Minimum wage [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15427
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

Yesterday I went with a friend to Fry's electronics (think Costco for computer nerds, if you've never been, it's that big) to buy a new video card and computer monitor. There were literally 4 cars in the parking lot. We thought it might be closed. Inside fully 80%+ of the shelves were empty. Not low, empty. No video cards, no monitors. 4 televisions, all floor models. They had signs up around the store proclaiming that they were not liquidating. It was shocking. We asked what was going on and were told that they were "renegotiating all of their vendor contracts in light of the trade war." The few available components had doubled in price. That's the Trump economy, in a nutshell. It's just about to hit. Hard.


So you saw it too, the Eddie Lampertization of Fry's.
They're doing to Fry's what Eddie Lampert has been doing to SEARS.
I am stunned by it. Fry's used to be jokingly called "The Crack Store" because it WAS the "crack store" if your "drug" is high tech stuff.

Now it looks positively SOVIET, and it's a tragedy.
And watching it die this slow and painful death is even worse...they should just pull the plug.
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#320939 - 02/02/20 09:14 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: Phil Hoskins]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3064
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Its strange. I live in a town that is at least 3 hours away from a Fry's. I love to go into that store when I have the opportunity but I buy most of my stuff on EBAY. The Ebay prices are always lower than Fry's. My suspicion is that Fry's, not unlike Macy's and all the rest of the retailers are feeling the brunt of competition from places like Amazon and Ebay (and there are others) and that is a lot more responsible for what is going on, just on Fry's but the whole bunch.

Oh, the prices on EBAY have gone up but that is the automatic taxes for the states that are being charged. The current sales tax is, I think, 0.0869% - I have always wondered who set that rate. In spite of that the prices are still lower than fry's

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#320940 - 02/03/20 12:34 AM Re: Minimum wage [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16505
Loc: Florida

Sales tax here is 7%. It's a little higher yet in the resort areas.
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