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#61982 - 05/04/08 06:20 AM Re: Minimum wage [Re: pdx rick]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42505
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
I view health care as preventative - I get annual checkups, go to the dentist every six months. I go to a chiropractor quarterly for spinal tune-ups and talk to a "shrink" every four weeks for mental health tune-ups.

I go to the gym three times and week for physical conditioning and I walk about 10 miles a week.


I have one goal that I have not realized and it's due to cost more than anything and that is to get at least one full-body massage per month.
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#61983 - 05/04/08 06:22 AM Re: Minimum wage [Re: mama]
Reality Bytes Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 1004
Loc: Iowa
 Originally Posted By: mama
Yes-EVERYONE "dreams" of "growing up" and "subsisting".

[The "Under-class" is no longer "maintenance-free".]


I'm not sure what your point is - but in any event I don't equate "minimum wage" to anything you would "dream of". Many people think there should be no minimum wage at all, that it should only be market-driven... I disagree, but I was just thinking of a practical suggestion for what an absolute minimum really is, below which is not something we would want ANYONE in our society to be reduced to.

A minimum wage also should be enough that one can, if so motivated, be able to work themselves OUT of the hole, absent any extraordinary situations. That would be why I think that phone, internet and transportation ought to be considered legitimate requirements to be considered a 'livable' situation (but not 'comfortable'). Perhaps not internet; as long as there are free public accessible internet resources reasonably available.

Although currently emergency care already is a given, as far as I know, I think the benefit of yearly medical and dental checkups probably ought to be included, as that tiny investment often does prevent huge expenses later (or so I've been told).

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#61984 - 05/04/08 06:26 AM Re: Minimum wage [Re: Reality Bytes]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42505
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
 Originally Posted By: Reality Bytes
Many people think there should be no minimum wage at all, that it should only be market-driven... I disagree...

I agree with your disagreement RB - minimum wage is the only thing that keeps the U.S. from skidding into the status of a third-world country like Mexico.

Having said that, one can not survive on minimum wage and live alone.
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#61985 - 05/04/08 06:28 AM Re: Minimum wage [Re: pdx rick]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42505
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
...but here is the "problem" with minimum wage:

A business will simply raise the price of their service or goods due to paying high minimum wages which further perpetuates the inability to live at minimum wage.

...it's like a dog chasing its tail.
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#61986 - 05/04/08 06:38 AM Re: Minimum wage [Re: pdx rick]
mama Offline
member

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1499
Loc: Georgia
They will be moving from "here"
to
"here"
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#61989 - 05/04/08 06:49 AM Re: Minimum wage [Re: mama]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42505
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
 Originally Posted By: mama
They will be moving from "here"
to
"here"

They're moving to a county that only has 3,600 people?! OMG!! What must that be like?

I live in an area consisting of 7.2 million people, and there are 1 million people in my county alone!

I live in an area called the East Bay (...because it's on the east side of the San Francisco Bay ) and I often refer to it as the eBay - like the company.
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#61990 - 05/04/08 07:08 AM Re: Minimum wage [Re: pdx rick]
Reality Bytes Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 1004
Loc: Iowa
 Originally Posted By: california rick
As I stated on another thread, I make $53K a year and I am single. (A company car + fuel) is paid for by my company. After paying for my portion of health insurance, my take home is $2300.00 per month.

That $2300.00 goes for:

  • $1125.00 Rent (1 bdrm / 1 ba )
  • 65.00 Water, garbage (Yes, as a renter I pay those fees on top of my monthly rent)
  • 65.95 Cable w/ Internet access
  • 39.99 Cell phone
  • 29.95 Land line (required to have to "buzz" people in to visit me)
  • 72.00 Pacific, Gas and Electic
  • 328.00 Student Loan Re-payment
  • 300.00 Savings Accounts ($100.00 each to vacation account, spending account, emergency account)
  • 55.00 Dry Cleaning
  • 19.00 Gym membership
  • 200.00 Food (Includes groceries and dining out, cleaning supplies and toiletries)


I have no credit card debt.

...and that's my monthly expenditures for my salary of $53K a year.

sidebar:
In 2007, I paid $8000.00 in Federal income tax, and $2000.00 in State income tax - so basically, I'm only making $43K a year.


Thanks for providing real info... I see now what you and Phil are talking about, WRT $25/hr being necessary for a 'reasonably livable' wage (no extravagant expenses, nothing in there for even dining out, and no transportation expenses - yikes! (yes I know that in the city you may not need a car, but... ))

First of all, you say that excluding taxes, your 'net yearly' is 43K... so given that your take-home is 27.6K, that means you are paying 15.4K a year in medical premiums?!

If that is even remotely the case, Rick, you ought to at least consider a Health Savings Account! You could take home at least 5k more a year and be socking away 5k a year in tax-exempt self-directed investment in your own medical account, and still get HMO and catastrophic coverage with effectively no deductible!

...

Still, how would that relate to a true 'minimum wage' (someone who probably doesn't have student loans, or go on vacation, or save for emergencies - although it would be nice if they could of course), even for the bay area?

First of all, most minimum wage jobs do not include healthcare, you're expected to use emergency services only... maybe they should, but they don't... let's assume the housing costs are the same, no cable, no vacation fund, combine savings and 'emergency' fund into one:

$1125.00 Rent (1 bdrm / 1 ba )
65.00 Water, garbage (Yes, as a renter I pay those fees on top of my monthly rent)
39.99 Cell phone (one or the other, not both)
72.00 Pacific, Gas and Electic
100.00 Savings Accounts ($100.00 to combo spending & emergency account)
200.00 Food (Includes groceries and dining out, cleaning supplies and toiletries)
150.00 Catastrophic Medical insurance or basic HMO

That's about $1750/mo, or $21K/yr take-home... I think that would be at least $28K per year before taxes, so that's about $14/hr... it seems Phil is spot-on for the bay area.


In contrast, here's my numbers:

I pay $700/mo PITI for my own 3br/2ba house, modest size (1200 sq ft, including basement)
$150 utils (heat, a/c, electric)
$35/mo internet (includes VOIP phone)
$40 cable TV (if I have it, which I don't right now)
$40 cellphone (no landline, other than VOIP)
$150 High-deductible catastrophic medical insurance (would add $200 for my health savings account contribution, but can't afford it right now)
$200 for food
$100 for car expenses, gas, insurance
$100 for misc (emergencies, house repairs, clothing, but honestly don't budget that except when I need it)

[Note: this WAS a 2br/1ba house, before I added a br and ba in the basement, so I could rent it out for $300/mo - so I sdhould reduce that by $300/mo, or $400/mo cost which is about right for an apartment around here]

So, the net is about $1200/mo around here... or 14.4K take-home, probably 18K gross. or $9/hr.

Hmm, interesting.

Of course, there's the question of whether this is a single person or a 'family of four'... I think the answer is obviously 'single', I don't judge how much value an employee brings to my business based on how big the family is... I think that falls under the category of 'family planning', literally! ...and I don't think we want the employer OR the government doing that!



Edited by Reality Bytes (05/04/08 07:16 AM)
Edit Reason: added note and corrected totals
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#61991 - 05/04/08 07:11 AM Re: Minimum wage [Re: Reality Bytes]
Joe Keegan Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/25/05
Posts: 8707
Look to China for the minimum wage future model of labor/capitol, because that's where we're headed.

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#62003 - 05/04/08 12:48 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: Reality Bytes]
Garden Toad Offline
newbie

Registered: 06/27/07
Posts: 268
Loc: central Indiana
 Originally Posted By: Reality Bytes)
[list




In contrast, here's my numbers:

I pay $700/mo PITI for my own 3br/2ba house, modest size (1200 sq ft, including basement)
$150 utils (heat, a/c, electric)
$35/mo internet (includes VOIP phone)
$40 cable TV (if I have it, which I don't right now)
$40 cellphone (no landline, other than VOIP)
$150 High-deductible catastrophic medical insurance (would add $200 for my health savings account contribution, but can't afford it right now)
$200 for food
$100 for car expenses, gas, insurance
$100 for misc (emergencies, house repairs, clothing, but honestly don't budget that except when I need it)

[Note: this WAS a 2br/1ba house, before I added a br and ba in the basement, so I could rent it out for $300/mo - so I sdhould reduce that by $300/mo, or $400/mo cost which is about right for an apartment around here]

So, the net is about $1200/mo around here... or 14.4K take-home, probably 18K gross. or $9/hr.

Hmm, interesting.




This is similar to what my daughter is facing.
Her rent is $550, but she spends much more on driving.
$100 wouldn't cover gas let alone insurance. She doesn't have a car payment since we gave her the car.
She also spends a little money on clothes, hair and make-up.

She spend more than $200 for food. She is working 2 low paying jobs so she does eat fast food at least once a day, usually in the car driving between the full time $8 per hour job and the $9 part time one. At an average of $6 for that lunch, that's $42 per week or $186.00 per month.
She skips breakfast most of the time but does make dinner so she spends about $50 per week on groceries, excluding cleaning products.

Right now she is trying to buy some furniture. She is buying used items, but it is difficult.

She needs a roomate because she is barly scraping by and after all that work she can't afford to go out on her 1 day off. It is getting depressing for her.
When I first moved away from my parents I didn't have much and worked a minimum wage job, but I had more spending money than her. I didn't have internet and cell phone, but it wasn't necessary then.
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#62012 - 05/04/08 01:36 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: Garden Toad]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42505
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
 Originally Posted By: Garden Toad
She skips breakfast most of the time...


 Quote:
If you are a breakfast eater, you are less likely to have a work site accident and you have quicker reaction times.

Colorado State University


Just FYI. The insurance industry has funded a "eating breakfast" study and came to the same conclusion.
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