Current Topics
Is it too soon to be talking 2020?
by perotista
0 seconds ago
RoundTable - SPRING 2020
by pondering_it_all
Today at 06:45 AM
Anonymous dumps a treasure trove of docs
by pondering_it_all
Today at 06:31 AM
covid-19 cure
by pondering_it_all
Today at 06:19 AM
Edward Snowden Interview
by danarhea
Today at 03:45 AM
The Maximum Wage
by logtroll
Today at 12:24 AM
Burn and Destroy
by pondering_it_all
Yesterday at 10:38 PM
The Far-Right's Civil War aka "boogaloo"
by jgw
Yesterday at 10:04 PM
The Unmasking of Michael Flynn
by Irked
Yesterday at 05:30 PM
Michigan Rep. Justin Amash Takes Step Toward Libertarian Presidential Bid
by Greger
05/30/20 07:21 PM
First Bernie Sanders Thread 2020
by pdx rick
05/30/20 01:52 AM
Trump may be ahead!
by rporter314
05/29/20 01:29 PM
A Thought Experiment about COVID-19
by pondering_it_all
05/26/20 01:45 AM
Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse?
by Greger
05/25/20 08:59 PM
Genius: how to make of a surgical mask, an N95-equivalent
by GreatNewsTonight
05/25/20 03:51 AM
The Way We Were
by Jeffery J. Haas
05/25/20 12:46 AM
What's for dinner?
by GreatNewsTonight
05/24/20 08:18 PM
Reinfection of COVID19
by jgw
05/23/20 06:42 PM
Coronavirus: The Plague of The 21st Century?
by Jeffery J. Haas
05/23/20 04:14 AM
Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2
by GreatNewsTonight
05/22/20 08:58 PM
Forum Stats
6292 Members
60 Forums
16920 Topics
300174 Posts

Max Online: 294 @ 12/06/17 12:57 AM
Google Adsense
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#320646 - 01/27/20 05:56 PM Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials?
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
Quote:
The federal government already guarantees single-payer health care to Americans over 65 through Medicare. Senior citizens already receive a certain kind of universal basic income; it’s called Social Security. While elderly Americans might balk at the idea of the government paying back hundreds of billions of dollars in student debt, they are already the grand beneficiaries of a government debt subsidy: The mortgage-interest deduction, a longtime staple of the federal tax code, effectively compensates the American homeowner (whose average age is 54) for their mortgage debt, thus saving this disproportionately old group approximately $800 billion in taxes owed to the federal government each decade. The economist Ed Glaeser has likened these policies to “Boomer socialism.”

In this framing, Sanders is not offering his more youthful constituency a radically new contract. Instead, he is extending the terms of an existing social contract to cover more—and, necessarily, younger—Americans.
From The Atlantic

You kids stay off my grass!
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

Top
#320649 - 01/27/20 06:51 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3239
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
You are spot on and that is, exactly, the problem. The term "socialism" IS the problem. American voters have been trained, for years, to despise and NEVER vote for a socialist, no matter what. Nobody really cares what it means - they just know its really bad. This has nothing to do with anything but a really good job of demonization and it lost Hillary the presidency (because she had been demonized for literally years and people believed it because Hillary was above it all). The same thing has been done to the word "socialist". I addition to that Bernie has refused to join the Democratic party because he is a socialist. The only problem with that is that he should have run as a member of the the American Socialist Party if he felt that way - another flaw, I think. Then there is his age, yet another problem. In spite of all that simple fact Bernie is running and many of the left flock to the Bernie standard. The problem is that there are not enough of those votes to win the presidency. When you add in the job the Republicans will do to Bernie he will not only not win the presidency but he will get basically destroyed just as the Republicans have done to other presidential candidates. They have proven that they are REALLY good at this kind of thing.

I know, the this offends some but these are, I think, simple facts and should be faced. I also think that Biden, when they are through with him, cannot win. The reasons are not the same (except for his age) but there are there.

Everybody is forgetting that we have, right now, full employment and that is just for starters. I keep hearing how the Dems are going to win everybody. A good positive outlook is good but ..........

Top
#320653 - 01/27/20 08:10 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9833
Loc: North San Diego County
Full employment at three jobs and still can't pay the rent AND buy food. Times are not that great for lots of people. But I agree with your idea. "Socialism" is a dirty word in American politics, even though we have Republicans all swearing loyalty to Russia now! It's like the PTA getting up in arms because a pediatrician moves to town. Some basic confusion and knee-jerk reaction to certain words.

Single-payer is one of those. That's why progressive pols should explain they want to extend Medicare access to younger folks, but not give them full government-paid health care like we give everybody in the military and their dependents. Position it as the compromise, the middle ground. No more "socialist" than Medicare.

(Which of course is totally socialist, but no need to stimulate everybody's amygdala. So are most functions of government.)
_________________________
God sent Trump.......because God was out of locusts.

Top
#320673 - 01/28/20 04:21 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
I just don't think anything Trump could say about Bernie has the impact he thinks it does anymore...not outside his hardcore base.
He has done so much damage to so many sectors of society that the people he hopes will respond to his mudslinging... won't.

Trump has damaged this country far worse than any kindly old quasi-socialist could have or would have done. I think Trump has actually softened the ground and made it more fertile for a Bernie Sanders as a result.

That's IF Bernie and his crack team (sure hope he HAS one!) can leverage it in the right way.
My Plan B is to simply get the House and Senate with staggering majorities and get rid of him all over again on Day One, sans the McConnell Human Shield factor, as in: This time it is one and done, and there WILL be witnesses and testimony galore.

If I could be assured we could garner monster majorities in both chambers, I almost wish Trump WOULD get his pyrrhic victory, just to watch his head explode when he sees what's waiting for him.

_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

Top
#320676 - 01/28/20 04:30 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
The federal government already guarantees single-payer health care to Americans over 65 through Medicare. Senior citizens already receive a certain kind of universal basic income; it’s called Social Security. While elderly Americans might balk at the idea of the government paying back hundreds of billions of dollars in student debt, they are already the grand beneficiaries of a government debt subsidy: The mortgage-interest deduction, a longtime staple of the federal tax code, effectively compensates the American homeowner (whose average age is 54) for their mortgage debt, thus saving this disproportionately old group approximately $800 billion in taxes owed to the federal government each decade. The economist Ed Glaeser has likened these policies to “Boomer socialism.”

In this framing, Sanders is not offering his more youthful constituency a radically new contract. Instead, he is extending the terms of an existing social contract to cover more—and, necessarily, younger—Americans.
From The Atlantic

You kids stay off my grass!



Well, I suppose, if I had to respond, I'd point out that we already can't afford the socialism we've signed the boomers up for, and sure as shootin can't afford to expand it to cover additional generations.

That's the problem with socialism, after all. Sooner or later, you run out of other people's money.
_________________________
Winter Is Coming

Top
#320679 - 01/28/20 04:58 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: CPWILL]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

That's the problem with socialism, after all. Sooner or later, you run out of other people's money.


Only if they're simultaneously paying taxes AND paying for private sector healthcare both.
If they're just paying their taxes, the ones from those decent paying GOOD jobs...you know, the ones that you say have spurred such record shrinking of the middle class "due to the explosion of UPPER class" that you previously referred to...then with the disappearance of those monster private sector healthcare insurance premiums and copays, it's a net positive because we wind up paying slightly less, whereas private sector healthcare spending is guaranteed to hit 40 to FIFTY trillion dollars, at the rate it is growing right now

Since when do we run out of taxpayer money?

Oh, that's right...when we cut and cut and cut and then keep cutting until the most liable are paying almost no taxes at all...because:
Trickle Down.
Yeah, I can see where it might come up short!
Maybe someone gave a few too many tax cuts to a few too many peeps, and maybe their allergy to adjusting the SS income cap is also biting them in the derriere.

The point is, public options and single payer healthcare and all those good things do require a solid and dependable tax base in order to function, but one only runs out of "other people's money" when one is busily engaged IN - - - - - OTHERING everyone else.
The more we "other" and condition everyone to engage in "othering", the more it BECOMES "other people's money" and that is because it becomes less and less a civic obligation as the cost of living in civilized society.

So I can readily understand just how annoying all that must sound to a group of rugged individualists who have grown up as the beneficiaries of legacy social/public goods and services that, in reality, used to be so dependable as to be taken for granted, as if they were the very air we breathe.
Which brings me to another minor point, namely that up till recently, the very air we DO breathe is something of a taxpayer supported public good because a lot of tax money went into ideas and programs that CLEANED UP the very air we are breathing.

That air, that water, those roads, bridges and tunnels, those dams, literally all those public goods reek of a quasi-socialist underpinning and pretty much every last one of us benefited from them unless we grew up on an Indian reservation out in the middle of BFE.

_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

Top
#320680 - 01/28/20 05:16 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9833
Loc: North San Diego County
Quite true: We are already spending what we are spending, and everybody gets healthcare one way or another. I don't think there are a lot of people dying because nobody is willing to give them the healthcare they need. Except for "the least of these my brothers" who are so mentally incapable they crawl off and die in the sewer or something. But what a despicable idea to say the system depends on them dying without care! So the "we can't afford it" claim is just not true AND morally bankrupt.

What we do have is a horribly incompetent and inefficient system of paying for it all, that makes some people very rich on the backs of everybody else. With ACA and expanded Medicaid we no longer have medical bankruptcies, which were the horror show of the last few decades. Of course Trump et al are doing their best to bring back that evil.

Top
#320682 - 01/28/20 12:47 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10151
Loc: One of the Mexicos
How about this for a description of the fundamental difference between conservatives and liberals:

Liberals tend towards acknowledging that we are all in this together; collaboration is key.

Conservatives tend towards thinking that a person can (and should) go it alone; it’s all a competition.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

Top
#320693 - 01/28/20 05:20 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: logtroll
How about this for a description of the fundamental difference between conservatives and liberals:

Liberals tend towards acknowledging that we are all in this together; collaboration is key.

Conservatives tend towards thinking that a person can (and should) go it alone; it’s all a competition.


And all I've ever said is let's find a happy medium somewhere that stimulates the underclass to where it has a natural healthy churn via upward mobility.
If there really WAS all that much upward mobility in the underclass we would not be seeing the exponential rise in homelessness, and we would not be witnessing record shortages of skilled labor.

The natural ambition common to the underclass would work together with expanded access to upward mobility to move people up the ladders and new people would take their place until they too were able to make their move.

What we see in the present day is way too much stagnation, and if you're born into poverty these days, you tend to be stuck there.

We're too far to the Right in terms of economic inequality and too far in terms of drying up access to upward mobility in our underclass.
Fix those problems and a lot of associated problems will gradually fade to some degree.

That is not a prescription for socialism, it's a prescription for a square deal, a "New Deal" and it is a time tested and proven model that served us for almost forty years, and it stimulated the greatest and longest period of overall economic prosperity in recorded history.

Nothing tried since has ever come close.
So I say that "nothing succeeds like success, we should use the ideas that have already proven to work."
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

Top
#320695 - 01/28/20 06:16 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3239
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Not quibbling - just a different view.

Conservatives tend to believe that people will always do the right thing and don't need regulation
Liberals suspect people need regulation and will not always do the right thing

Conservatives - no original sin
Liberals - original sin

I have conservatives who are friends. They honestly, for instance, believe that Social Security takes away the right to do the right thing! In other words, they have a LOT more faith in people than Liberals.

Top
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >

Who's Online
0 registered (), 62 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Superfly, GreatNewsTonight, danarhea, RoughDraft274, CPWILL
6292 Registered Users
A2