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#320646 - 01/27/20 05:56 PM Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials?
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
Quote:
The federal government already guarantees single-payer health care to Americans over 65 through Medicare. Senior citizens already receive a certain kind of universal basic income; it’s called Social Security. While elderly Americans might balk at the idea of the government paying back hundreds of billions of dollars in student debt, they are already the grand beneficiaries of a government debt subsidy: The mortgage-interest deduction, a longtime staple of the federal tax code, effectively compensates the American homeowner (whose average age is 54) for their mortgage debt, thus saving this disproportionately old group approximately $800 billion in taxes owed to the federal government each decade. The economist Ed Glaeser has likened these policies to “Boomer socialism.”

In this framing, Sanders is not offering his more youthful constituency a radically new contract. Instead, he is extending the terms of an existing social contract to cover more—and, necessarily, younger—Americans.
From The Atlantic

You kids stay off my grass!
_________________________
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#320649 - 01/27/20 06:51 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3239
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
You are spot on and that is, exactly, the problem. The term "socialism" IS the problem. American voters have been trained, for years, to despise and NEVER vote for a socialist, no matter what. Nobody really cares what it means - they just know its really bad. This has nothing to do with anything but a really good job of demonization and it lost Hillary the presidency (because she had been demonized for literally years and people believed it because Hillary was above it all). The same thing has been done to the word "socialist". I addition to that Bernie has refused to join the Democratic party because he is a socialist. The only problem with that is that he should have run as a member of the the American Socialist Party if he felt that way - another flaw, I think. Then there is his age, yet another problem. In spite of all that simple fact Bernie is running and many of the left flock to the Bernie standard. The problem is that there are not enough of those votes to win the presidency. When you add in the job the Republicans will do to Bernie he will not only not win the presidency but he will get basically destroyed just as the Republicans have done to other presidential candidates. They have proven that they are REALLY good at this kind of thing.

I know, the this offends some but these are, I think, simple facts and should be faced. I also think that Biden, when they are through with him, cannot win. The reasons are not the same (except for his age) but there are there.

Everybody is forgetting that we have, right now, full employment and that is just for starters. I keep hearing how the Dems are going to win everybody. A good positive outlook is good but ..........

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#320653 - 01/27/20 08:10 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9833
Loc: North San Diego County
Full employment at three jobs and still can't pay the rent AND buy food. Times are not that great for lots of people. But I agree with your idea. "Socialism" is a dirty word in American politics, even though we have Republicans all swearing loyalty to Russia now! It's like the PTA getting up in arms because a pediatrician moves to town. Some basic confusion and knee-jerk reaction to certain words.

Single-payer is one of those. That's why progressive pols should explain they want to extend Medicare access to younger folks, but not give them full government-paid health care like we give everybody in the military and their dependents. Position it as the compromise, the middle ground. No more "socialist" than Medicare.

(Which of course is totally socialist, but no need to stimulate everybody's amygdala. So are most functions of government.)
_________________________
God sent Trump.......because God was out of locusts.

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#320673 - 01/28/20 04:21 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
I just don't think anything Trump could say about Bernie has the impact he thinks it does anymore...not outside his hardcore base.
He has done so much damage to so many sectors of society that the people he hopes will respond to his mudslinging... won't.

Trump has damaged this country far worse than any kindly old quasi-socialist could have or would have done. I think Trump has actually softened the ground and made it more fertile for a Bernie Sanders as a result.

That's IF Bernie and his crack team (sure hope he HAS one!) can leverage it in the right way.
My Plan B is to simply get the House and Senate with staggering majorities and get rid of him all over again on Day One, sans the McConnell Human Shield factor, as in: This time it is one and done, and there WILL be witnesses and testimony galore.

If I could be assured we could garner monster majorities in both chambers, I almost wish Trump WOULD get his pyrrhic victory, just to watch his head explode when he sees what's waiting for him.

_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#320676 - 01/28/20 04:30 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
The federal government already guarantees single-payer health care to Americans over 65 through Medicare. Senior citizens already receive a certain kind of universal basic income; it’s called Social Security. While elderly Americans might balk at the idea of the government paying back hundreds of billions of dollars in student debt, they are already the grand beneficiaries of a government debt subsidy: The mortgage-interest deduction, a longtime staple of the federal tax code, effectively compensates the American homeowner (whose average age is 54) for their mortgage debt, thus saving this disproportionately old group approximately $800 billion in taxes owed to the federal government each decade. The economist Ed Glaeser has likened these policies to “Boomer socialism.”

In this framing, Sanders is not offering his more youthful constituency a radically new contract. Instead, he is extending the terms of an existing social contract to cover more—and, necessarily, younger—Americans.
From The Atlantic

You kids stay off my grass!



Well, I suppose, if I had to respond, I'd point out that we already can't afford the socialism we've signed the boomers up for, and sure as shootin can't afford to expand it to cover additional generations.

That's the problem with socialism, after all. Sooner or later, you run out of other people's money.
_________________________
Winter Is Coming

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#320679 - 01/28/20 04:58 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: CPWILL]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

That's the problem with socialism, after all. Sooner or later, you run out of other people's money.


Only if they're simultaneously paying taxes AND paying for private sector healthcare both.
If they're just paying their taxes, the ones from those decent paying GOOD jobs...you know, the ones that you say have spurred such record shrinking of the middle class "due to the explosion of UPPER class" that you previously referred to...then with the disappearance of those monster private sector healthcare insurance premiums and copays, it's a net positive because we wind up paying slightly less, whereas private sector healthcare spending is guaranteed to hit 40 to FIFTY trillion dollars, at the rate it is growing right now

Since when do we run out of taxpayer money?

Oh, that's right...when we cut and cut and cut and then keep cutting until the most liable are paying almost no taxes at all...because:
Trickle Down.
Yeah, I can see where it might come up short!
Maybe someone gave a few too many tax cuts to a few too many peeps, and maybe their allergy to adjusting the SS income cap is also biting them in the derriere.

The point is, public options and single payer healthcare and all those good things do require a solid and dependable tax base in order to function, but one only runs out of "other people's money" when one is busily engaged IN - - - - - OTHERING everyone else.
The more we "other" and condition everyone to engage in "othering", the more it BECOMES "other people's money" and that is because it becomes less and less a civic obligation as the cost of living in civilized society.

So I can readily understand just how annoying all that must sound to a group of rugged individualists who have grown up as the beneficiaries of legacy social/public goods and services that, in reality, used to be so dependable as to be taken for granted, as if they were the very air we breathe.
Which brings me to another minor point, namely that up till recently, the very air we DO breathe is something of a taxpayer supported public good because a lot of tax money went into ideas and programs that CLEANED UP the very air we are breathing.

That air, that water, those roads, bridges and tunnels, those dams, literally all those public goods reek of a quasi-socialist underpinning and pretty much every last one of us benefited from them unless we grew up on an Indian reservation out in the middle of BFE.

_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#320680 - 01/28/20 05:16 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9833
Loc: North San Diego County
Quite true: We are already spending what we are spending, and everybody gets healthcare one way or another. I don't think there are a lot of people dying because nobody is willing to give them the healthcare they need. Except for "the least of these my brothers" who are so mentally incapable they crawl off and die in the sewer or something. But what a despicable idea to say the system depends on them dying without care! So the "we can't afford it" claim is just not true AND morally bankrupt.

What we do have is a horribly incompetent and inefficient system of paying for it all, that makes some people very rich on the backs of everybody else. With ACA and expanded Medicaid we no longer have medical bankruptcies, which were the horror show of the last few decades. Of course Trump et al are doing their best to bring back that evil.

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#320682 - 01/28/20 12:47 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10151
Loc: One of the Mexicos
How about this for a description of the fundamental difference between conservatives and liberals:

Liberals tend towards acknowledging that we are all in this together; collaboration is key.

Conservatives tend towards thinking that a person can (and should) go it alone; it’s all a competition.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#320693 - 01/28/20 05:20 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: logtroll
How about this for a description of the fundamental difference between conservatives and liberals:

Liberals tend towards acknowledging that we are all in this together; collaboration is key.

Conservatives tend towards thinking that a person can (and should) go it alone; it’s all a competition.


And all I've ever said is let's find a happy medium somewhere that stimulates the underclass to where it has a natural healthy churn via upward mobility.
If there really WAS all that much upward mobility in the underclass we would not be seeing the exponential rise in homelessness, and we would not be witnessing record shortages of skilled labor.

The natural ambition common to the underclass would work together with expanded access to upward mobility to move people up the ladders and new people would take their place until they too were able to make their move.

What we see in the present day is way too much stagnation, and if you're born into poverty these days, you tend to be stuck there.

We're too far to the Right in terms of economic inequality and too far in terms of drying up access to upward mobility in our underclass.
Fix those problems and a lot of associated problems will gradually fade to some degree.

That is not a prescription for socialism, it's a prescription for a square deal, a "New Deal" and it is a time tested and proven model that served us for almost forty years, and it stimulated the greatest and longest period of overall economic prosperity in recorded history.

Nothing tried since has ever come close.
So I say that "nothing succeeds like success, we should use the ideas that have already proven to work."
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#320695 - 01/28/20 06:16 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3239
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Not quibbling - just a different view.

Conservatives tend to believe that people will always do the right thing and don't need regulation
Liberals suspect people need regulation and will not always do the right thing

Conservatives - no original sin
Liberals - original sin

I have conservatives who are friends. They honestly, for instance, believe that Social Security takes away the right to do the right thing! In other words, they have a LOT more faith in people than Liberals.

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#320696 - 01/28/20 06:16 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: CPWILL]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I suppose, if I had to respond


You don't. But if you must you might at least try making sense.

Donald Trump has increased the national debt by one Trillion dollars each year of his presidency. What we REALLY can't afford is Republican leadership. What exactly is he doing with that money? Where is it going? Ah...of course....we're spending it all on poor people! It's the f*cking poors driving us into debt! And always demanding more more more from our hardworking Billionaires. If we raise their taxes they will become poor too and whatever will happen then?

Democratic socialism isn't terribly expensive. How's the national debt of Canada doing? Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland? Many other nations manage to afford socialized healthcare with destroying themselves or "running out of other people's money"

I've cut the nuts off of hogs that squealed less than Republicans about paying their goddam taxes.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#320697 - 01/28/20 06:26 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3239
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Again - the word "socialism" is the problem. I just don't understand why some insist on that word as it poisons the well. Please notice that Police departments, Fire departments, public schools and libraries are ALL paid for by taxes and, for the most part, supported by conservatives. If you hang a name on them they would foam at the mouth. They actually tried, several years ago in the South to libertarianize a Fire department. If you didn't subscribe to the fire department they let your house burn down. It worked until they were letting a house burn down and the house next door also burned down. They went back to the tax paid fire department thing.

Just saying..............

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#320699 - 01/28/20 07:09 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: jgw]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 570
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: jgw
Again - the word "socialism" is the problem.


Speaking as a socialist, I find the problem to be people listening to talking points pumped out by billionaires.
_________________________
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#320700 - 01/28/20 07:15 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
That seems to be proof that libertarianism doesn't work. Perhaps you should explain to me how Medicare and Social Security also don't work and how we are trying to abolish these systems as they are too expensive?

Or how Socialized healthcare is not working worldwide and how nations which have switched to it are clamoring to adopt an American style system of healthcare.?

Or how nations which have embraced social democracy are failing and going back to supporting only the 1%?

I have the courage not to vote for a candidate I don't like and who does not represent me or my views. I invite you and all the others who are terrified of a word you don't understand to vote against Bernie in the primaries and withhold your votes if Bernie should get the nomination.

I can assure you I will withhold mine if Biden is the nominee.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#320712 - 01/28/20 11:51 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
That seems to be proof that libertarianism doesn't work. Perhaps you should explain to me how Medicare and Social Security also don't work and how we are trying to abolish these systems as they are too expensive?

Or how Socialized healthcare is not working worldwide and how nations which have switched to it are clamoring to adopt an American style system of healthcare.?

Or how nations which have embraced social democracy are failing and going back to supporting only the 1%?

I have the courage not to vote for a candidate I don't like and who does not represent me or my views. I invite you and all the others who are terrified of a word you don't understand to vote against Bernie in the primaries and withhold your votes if Bernie should get the nomination.

I can assure you I will withhold mine if Biden is the nominee.


Bernie has not been spastically uttering that "S word" lately, he's just getting down to talking business and offering solutions.
Just doing that is better marketing all by itself...don't call it anything. Call it common sense, that's all.
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#320714 - 01/29/20 12:40 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
I am having increasing difficulty believing that the economy is going gangbusters, and with this most recent revelation, I am beginning to believe that the reporting agencies are being ordered to spew out manufactured bald-faced lies and made up figures.

U.S. factory sector in 10 year deepest slump - REUTERS

I was told there would be winning.
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#320716 - 01/29/20 12:55 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9833
Loc: North San Diego County
We are mostly a service-based economy now, and Trump has done nothing to bring back manufacturing. The activity level of a service-based economy depends mostly on buyer sentiment, not numbers like factory output. Consumers think the economy is good, so it's good. All smoke and mirrors with people thinking "businessman" Trump is making a difference. When consumer confidence falls, the whole house of cards tumbles down.

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#320719 - 01/29/20 01:57 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

That's the problem with socialism, after all. Sooner or later, you run out of other people's money.


Only if they're simultaneously paying taxes AND paying for private sector healthcare both.
If they're just paying their taxes, the ones from those decent paying GOOD jobs...you know, the ones that you say have spurred such record shrinking of the middle class "due to the explosion of UPPER class" that you previously referred to...then with the disappearance of those monster private sector healthcare insurance premiums and copays, it's a net positive because we wind up paying slightly less, whereas private sector healthcare spending is guaranteed to hit 40 to FIFTY trillion dollars, at the rate it is growing right now

Since when do we run out of taxpayer money?


Since people respond to incentives.

1. Under no set of tax rates - even when the top rates were in the low 90s - did we capture even enough of GDP to pay for the programs we already have. We have never come close to what we would need for the massive additional expenditures of the type being proposed.

2. Which is why Warren's MFA plan was so widely panned - even by some left wing sources, which was entertaining - and why Bernie doesn't really talk much about how he's going to have to crush the middle and lower middle class with taxes.

Quote:
Oh, that's right...when we cut and cut and cut and then keep cutting until the most liable are paying almost no taxes at all...because:
Trickle Down.


1. There is no theory of "Trickle Down Economics", that is not how Supply Side economics works.

2. It is funny, however, how after we cut, revenues increase.


Quote:
Maybe someone gave a few too many tax cuts to a few too many peeps, and maybe their allergy to adjusting the SS income cap is also biting them in the derriere.


Sure. We can pay for the Progressive Dream Wish with a payroll tax increase. We just need to hike the payroll tax rate to about 50%, disproportionately crushing the poor.

Quote:
The point is, public options and single payer healthcare and all those good things do require a solid and dependable tax base in order to function, but one only runs out of "other people's money" when one is busily engaged IN - - - - - OTHERING everyone else.
The more we "other" and condition everyone to engage in "othering", the more it BECOMES "other people's money" and that is because it becomes less and less a civic obligation as the cost of living in civilized society.

So I can readily understand just how annoying all that must sound to a group of rugged individualists who have grown up as the beneficiaries of legacy social/public goods and services that, in reality, used to be so dependable as to be taken for granted, as if they were the very air we breathe.
Which brings me to another minor point, namely that up till recently, the very air we DO breathe is something of a taxpayer supported public good because a lot of tax money went into ideas and programs that CLEANED UP the very air we are breathing.

That air, that water, those roads, bridges and tunnels, those dams, literally all those public goods reek of a quasi-socialist underpinning and pretty much every last one of us benefited from them unless we grew up on an Indian reservation out in the middle of BFE.



Let me know if there is anything in that you actually want me to respond to... because it didn't seem as if there was.
_________________________
Winter Is Coming

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#320720 - 01/29/20 02:06 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
I suppose, if I had to respond


You don't. But if you must you might at least try making sense.


smile It is usually a goal.

Quote:
Donald Trump has increased the national debt by one Trillion dollars each year of his presidency.


I know, right? Gosh, it's almost as if he was a big-government inchoate liar whose bailouts of the farmer victims of his trade war have already cost twice as much as Obama's bailouts of the auto industry.

Quote:
What exactly is he doing with that money? Where is it going? Ah...of course....we're spending it all on poor people! It's the f*cking poors driving us into debt!


Mostly it's the Entitlements.

Quote:
And always demanding more more more from our hardworking Billionaires. If we raise their taxes they will become poor too and whatever will happen then?


Well, no. They will make the rational decision to limit their tax exposure, and we will end up expending ever more energy doing ever more damage to our economy trying to hunt down and kill golden-egg-laying-geese.

Quote:
Democratic socialism isn't terribly expensive. How's the national debt of Canada doing? Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland?


I don't know if I'd put Switzerland on that list, and, IIRC, a couple of those countries have been moving away from Democratic Socialism lately, after it proved to be too expensive.

Though, if you want to massively exploit our oil deposits, as Norway does, I might be willing to agree to that smile.

Quote:
Many other nations manage to afford socialized healthcare with destroying themselves or "running out of other people's money"


Actually they do - which is why those countries end up having to centrally ration care, and cut their defense budgets to the bone, depending on the United States to pick up their slack.

Quote:
I've cut the nuts off of hogs that squealed less than Republicans about paying their goddam taxes.


:shrug:
_________________________
Winter Is Coming

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#320733 - 01/29/20 02:09 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 570
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
We are mostly a service-based economy now,


Which is basically saying, "Living off of our grandfathers' collected stored labor.
_________________________
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#320734 - 01/29/20 02:11 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: CPWILL]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 570
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

Actually they do - which is why those countries end up having to centrally ration care, and cut their defense budgets to the bone, depending on the United States to pick up their slack.



If everyone is eligible for medical care, you are going to have to wait in line a bit.

"Rationing care" is what happens when you have to decide when to short yourself on insulin.
_________________________
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

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#320738 - 01/29/20 05:45 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Hamish Howl]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
We are mostly a service-based economy now,


Which is basically saying, "Living off of our grandfathers' collected stored labor.


There is no such thing as a modern industrialized western economy that sustains itself solely on "service and services". It has never worked in the past and it won't work now. Nations have to be able to make stuff and its citizens need to be able to buy stuff.
This country's economy cannot be sustained on the fortunes enjoyed by a small handful of wealthy people and hundreds of millions of serfs working the king's garden.

And anyone who thinks this is sustainable is lying to themselves.
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#320739 - 01/29/20 05:52 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Hamish Howl]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl


If everyone is eligible for medical care, you are going to have to wait in line a bit.


If you have a critical care issue or an emergency you will not wait in line.

Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl

"Rationing care" is what happens when you have to decide when to short yourself on insulin.


And die of severe ketoacidosis at age twenty-seven.
Alec Holt, Type I diabetic, dies because his insulin was unaffordable.

Quote:
Her son, Alec, was a Type 1 diabetic – someone who needs to take insulin every day to survive. But turning 26 meant his parents' insurance would no longer cover the cost, shooting his monthly cost for insulin and supplies up to $1,300 per month, according to his mom.

"My son died because he could not afford his insulin," she said.


Stop telling me about twenty-five dollar Walmart insulin because clearly if Alec Holt could benefit from it, his doctor would have prescribed it to him or in the case of the generic, he could have gone there and gotten it himself.

He never would have survived in the days of ordinary cow insulin but the point is, if the kind of isulin he needed to survive is only a luxury for rich people, then the whole defense of our current system shrivels up and blows away like dust in the wind.

Shall we ration breathable air and potable water next? Because all of us need those things to survive. Is the air we breathe and the water we drink a luxury for wealthy people also?

A $1300 a month insulin price tag is the textbook example of what is the matter with our healthcare system today and there is no defense for it whatsoever.

I am sick of hearing about the damage that will be done to the medical industry if we go to single payer, all the handwringing over "lost jobs"...which jobs? Doctors? Will doctors lose their jobs?
Never.

Pharmacy Benefit Managers, a job that NEVER EVEN EXISTED until a few years ago, a job where someone actually does sit on a real life "death panel" and plays God with people's lives.

Yeah sorry, not going to mourn the loss of PBM jobs because a PBM can get another job inside the industry, a job where they can figure out how to best help people instead of playing God with their lives in the name of helping a CEO get a new yacht.

_________________________
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#320740 - 01/29/20 06:52 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
Jeffery, you aint insulin dependent and there's a lot you don't know about getting your hands on it when you can't afford it. I suppose there might have been times you needed cocaine and couldn't afford it. You probably got a little to tide you over from somewhere and knew exactly who to call when you din't have the money.

Trust me, I know something of this. I dunno this kid that let himself die rather than put forth the effort to get insulin. but I know that he could have found help. Hell, I've got enough right now to give a months supply to somebody. Donna used to help me out a little back when I couldn't afford it myself.

Insulin is insulin. It's a human hormone synthasized by the pancreas, there's fast release, medium release, and slow release. It's harder to use the fast release and the slow release is the one that's really stupid expensive.(Levimir) But it ALL works the same. Some just works better. I don't know all the ins and outs of being type one but my type 2 is so severe it might as well be type 1. Without insulin I'd be dead within the month.

Google ""free insulin" and you'll find tons of resources, I've listed them before but apparently you think I'm lying or don't know what I'm talking about. This dickweed kid went off his meds and thought he was f*cking superman and didn't need it. It killed him. It's entirely possible that it wasn't diabetes that killed him. More likely it was toxic masculinity. Real men don't like asking for help.

Life is tough all over. But as CPWILL has assured us, poverty is simply part of the human condition and poverty will kill you if you aren't strong enough or smart enough or lucky enough to survive.

I, and others, have proposed a form of government that alleviates some of the issues and suffering caused by poverty. CP insists that these folks need to just f*cking die and save him some tax money because he's got big plans and they don't include personal poverty or paying taxes to help poor people. He seems terribly concerned that other nations aren't spending enough on war materials and that they are wasting these funds helping the poor and depending on the USA to make war for them.

What the hell kinda way is that to run a government anyway? War is eternal and peace is entirely dependent on it.

War is, in fact, Peace!

Poverty is also wealth in his book I imagine. But if you follow the teachings of Jesus Christ you will be rewarded in heaven with riches beyond your wildest imaginings!

It's kind of an old scam. **Shrugs**
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#320741 - 01/29/20 07:44 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3239
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
libertarianism works in small doses but adherents tend to exreme and then it fails. Same holds true with the whole batch; Libertarian, Capitalism, Socialism, whatever..... its just the way it is.

Medicare has problems and has had them for quite some time. Too many people abusing the system and the system is having problems nailing them. Also, the money out of paychecks, to pay for it, have been too small to support it for years. I have whined about this, here, for years.

Social security has been fine for years. Then congress got involved and added a pile of stuff there that it was never designed to deal with. Then, on top of that, the congress saw all that money and wanted to mess with that too. All that activity put it at risk and then congress decided, relatively recently, to actually "take charge (loot)" the Social security trust. Unless this stops it will, in the future simply fail.

Oh, Trump is trying to abolish these two things to try and reduce HIS various additions to the national debt. I don't think he actually gives a damn about either one. His base likes the military so he won't dip into that one - yet.

Tax paid healthcare, worldwide, is just fine, thank you.....

What nations are failing insofar as healthcare is concerned?

I have never claimed to be against responsible support of things like healthcare from taxes but its never gonna happen and I believe one of the major factors in that is the word "socialism". I find it interesting that those insisting on using that word are the very people who claim to support it and refuse to not use that word thereby making it very hard to get that stuff done.

This insistence will, in large part, tend to support the re-election of the Jackass, Donald Trump. We have, exhausted the debate about that one. My side, against using "Socialist" are, unfortunately, winning that debate. If Bernie gets the nod it will be, in large part the word as well as scaring the literal s*** out of large groups of people who know how to jerk their legs by not voting for any damned Socialists who want to hugely change and actually destroy THEIR world. All I can say about that is "Nice Going!" now we get another 4 more years of Trump taring the s*** out of everything for Russia!

As far as your not voting if Biden gets the nod is concerned. I am duly impressed. Its obvious that you are determined to insist that Biden is worse than Trump. Hopefully everybody doesn't hold that as reality. I don't personally support him but I will vote for the Democratic nominee, whoever it is and pray they can beat Trump.

One last. If the economy holds I am not convinced ANYBODY can beat trump. I don't think, historically, that any sitting president, running for reelection, with full employment has ever lost an election. There is a simple fact; "JOBS are #1" when it comes to elections and whoever is in charge gets the credit.

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#320743 - 01/29/20 07:51 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 570
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl


If everyone is eligible for medical care, you are going to have to wait in line a bit.


If you have a critical care issue or an emergency you will not wait in line.


I'm aware. I grew up in Canada. Your wait was first triage based, then by age group, then by date applied.

The longest wait I ever had was 3 days, and that was for dental work...But that's anecdotal.

Compare that to "not even getting in line, because you can't pay for it."

Quote:
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl

"Rationing care" is what happens when you have to decide when to short yourself on insulin.


And die of severe ketoacidosis at age twenty-seven.
Alec Holt, Type I diabetic, dies because his insulin was unaffordable.
Quote:
Her son, Alec, was a Type 1 diabetic – someone who needs to take insulin every day to survive. But turning 26 meant his parents' insurance would no longer cover the cost, shooting his monthly cost for insulin and supplies up to $1,300 per month, according to his mom.

"My son died because he could not afford his insulin," she said.


The free market demanded his death.

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#320745 - 01/29/20 08:08 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Hamish Howl]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
Quote:
If everyone is eligible for medical care, you are going to have to wait in line a bit.

"Rationing care" is what happens when you have to decide when to short yourself on insulin.


Most people don't need a lot of medical care. Even someone as pathetic and fragile as myself. A few need a huge amount of it. Most just need maintenance and a handful of various prescriptions. Some just gonna f*ckin' die.

So how do we implement this thing without breaking the bank? You can't just flip a switch and "make it so". There aint enough money in the world to do that. But between private insurers, local, county, state and federal programs can all pick up a little of the slack.

I think Bernie mentioned that MFA wouldn't even begin to happen until three years into his presidency. On the centrist side Schumer has been pushing to drop the Medicare enrollment age by five years, then ten.
ACA did a lot to insure millions and with a bit of tweaking it could do more. States are more willing to sign onto Medicare expansion now that Obama's gone and it isn't a racist issue any more.

Slow and steady wins the race as they say.
_________________________
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#320747 - 01/29/20 08:15 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 570
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
If everyone is eligible for medical care, you are going to have to wait in line a bit.

"Rationing care" is what happens when you have to decide when to short yourself on insulin.


Most people don't need a lot of medical care. Even someone as pathetic and fragile as myself. A few need a huge amount of it. Most just need maintenance and a handful of various prescriptions. Some just gonna f*ckin' die.

So how do we implement this thing without breaking the bank? You can't just flip a switch and "make it so". There aint enough money in the world to do that. But between private insurers, local, county, state and federal programs can all pick up a little of the slack.

I think Bernie mentioned that MFA wouldn't even begin to happen until three years into his presidency. On the centrist side Schumer has been pushing to drop the Medicare enrollment age by five years, then ten.
ACA did a lot to insure millions and with a bit of tweaking it could do more. States are more willing to sign onto Medicare expansion now that Obama's gone and it isn't a racist issue any more.

Slow and steady wins the race as they say.


If we can maintain 12 carrier fleets and 6400 nuclear weapons, we can take care of some sick people.
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#320749 - 01/29/20 08:30 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
Quote:
libertarianism works in small doses but adherents tend to exreme and then it fails. Same holds true with the whole batch; Libertarian, Capitalism, Socialism, whatever..... its just the way it is.

Eggs-actly.

Social democracy is a mixed economy. In my mind it's market based but not market controlled. It's certainly not textbook or dictionary socialism nor even a move towards it. Sorry I ignored your wall of text but I thought what you said was imp[ortant and I don't want to type out another wall of text of my own...:)
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#320750 - 01/29/20 08:32 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Hamish Howl]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
Quote:
If we can maintain 12 carrier fleets and 6400 nuclear weapons, we can take care of some sick people.


Ya think?
_________________________
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#320751 - 01/29/20 08:46 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Jeffery, you aint insulin dependent and there's a lot you don't know about getting your hands on it when you can't afford it. I suppose there might have been times you needed cocaine and couldn't afford it. You probably got a little to tide you over from somewhere and knew exactly who to call when you din't have the money.

Trust me, I know something of this. I dunno this kid that let himself die rather than put forth the effort to get insulin. but I know that he could have found help. Hell, I've got enough right now to give a months supply to somebody. Donna used to help me out a little back when I couldn't afford it myself.

Insulin is insulin. It's a human hormone synthasized by the pancreas, there's fast release, medium release, and slow release. It's harder to use the fast release and the slow release is the one that's really stupid expensive.(Levimir) But it ALL works the same. Some just works better. I don't know all the ins and outs of being type one but my type 2 is so severe it might as well be type 1. Without insulin I'd be dead within the month.

Google ""free insulin" and you'll find tons of resources, I've listed them before but apparently you think I'm lying or don't know what I'm talking about. This dickweed kid went off his meds and thought he was f*cking superman and didn't need it. It killed him. It's entirely possible that it wasn't diabetes that killed him. More likely it was toxic masculinity. Real men don't like asking for help.

Life is tough all over. But as CPWILL has assured us, poverty is simply part of the human condition and poverty will kill you if you aren't strong enough or smart enough or lucky enough to survive.

I, and others, have proposed a form of government that alleviates some of the issues and suffering caused by poverty. CP insists that these folks need to just f*cking die and save him some tax money because he's got big plans and they don't include personal poverty or paying taxes to help poor people. He seems terribly concerned that other nations aren't spending enough on war materials and that they are wasting these funds helping the poor and depending on the USA to make war for them.

What the hell kinda way is that to run a government anyway? War is eternal and peace is entirely dependent on it.

War is, in fact, Peace!

Poverty is also wealth in his book I imagine. But if you follow the teachings of Jesus Christ you will be rewarded in heaven with riches beyond your wildest imaginings!

It's kind of an old scam. **Shrugs**


Oh come on...there are three Type I diabetics in my own extended family and four more in our circle of friends, so even though I do not inject insulin, I do have more than a nodding acquaintance with the stuff because I've had to deal with a couple of these people going into diabetic shock on more than a couple of occasions.

One friend, who is in that Veterans Wheelchair video I've posted here before, has to inject herself TEN times a day. She's the lady in the power chair who is doing the muscle pose with legs amped at the knees.
Linda Kirby, now deceased.



As you described, she did KEEP a vial or two of the cheap generic stuff "just in case", and that was what she was resorting to last time we had to break into her house on a welfare check in 2010.

Another friend of ours had to fly to Vegas in the middle of her son's honeymoon trip because he was rushed to the ER in a diabetic coma. Same thing, same situation.

Sorry, I can't equate finding insulin to finding an extra crack rock when I was jonesing for it. Incidentally I never had to resort to committing a crime to get some crack, whereas there have been times where I considered stealing a pack of cigarettes. Cigs are definitely more addicting than crack, and crack is thought to be terribly addictive.

Yes, I've observed people "getting their hands on some free insulin".
Sure, the kid probably took risks, he was attempting to hold down a steady job instead of spending the entire day searching for insulin.
That's why he managed to hang onto his job, he was able to show up.

I don't call that toxic masculinity, I call it trying to have a normal life despite being gravely ill with diabetes. Some folks still want to be productive working members of society and they had the temerity to believe that they should not have to give up being employed just so they could spend the whole day searching for medicine that they need to survive.

I've said it before, street dope dealers should consider switching product lines. They would become modern heroes, driving around and delivering cheap insulin smuggled in from Canada or Mexico.

I do not think you are lying, nor would I ever make such a judgment.
I think that a lot of people have very different lives and different situations and they can't all find the same easy access to lifesaving medications.

And if it really was that easy to get around the 1300 dollar insulin situation, there wouldn't even be a market for 1300 dollar insulin to begin with.
_________________________
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#320760 - 01/29/20 10:12 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9833
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
this kid that let himself die rather than put forth the effort to get insulin


Exactly right: Everybody should have either Medicaid or an ACA-compliant insurance plan, Hell, if your income is low enough you get the ACA plan for free! If you fall in between Medicaid and ACA because your governor is an idiot, then you can just get a lower paying job and get Medicaid. A fragile Type 1 diabetic 26 year old most likely can't hold a job that keeps him above the Medicaid upper income limit. And poor people can get on all sorts of programs that help them with copays or even pay the whole thing.

So even if you are on ACA, your out of pocket for copays stops at around $7000 per year. He didn't make $7000 per year? Then he could have been on Medicaid.

Nope, the kid who died just did not attempt to make the transition to his own insurance plan because he was an idiot. But a lot of Americans are idiots. My sister-in-law has refused to sign up for Medicare because her dead mother told her not to in a dream. :doh:

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#320767 - 01/29/20 11:19 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Hamish Howl]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3239
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
My wife went to canada, fell down some stairs, sprained her ankle. She went to the hospital and they apologized that they would have to charge her as she was not a citizen.

When my wife got back she check here to see what it would have cost in the United States. The local charge was something in excess of 3 times what she paid here.

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#320771 - 01/30/20 12:08 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
I'm aware, Jeff. Diabetes is going to kill me too. Mostly because I went long periods of time without it because I couldn't afford it. The damage it does never heals and is progressive. I live alone now. One mistake and I'm a deader. A series of mistakes and they start lopping my limbs off. It's an unfortunate disease and it's fatal. With diabetes you don't get to lead a "normal life". You shoot that insulin or you die. You get your hands on more insulin or you die. And then?
You f*cking die anyway. Slowly carved into a caricature of a human being as gangrene sets in.

Health care should be a right. But right now it's not. The government is under no obligation to keep uninsured people alive. Or to keep the drugs they need affordable.

Remember, poverty is part of the human condition. Along with poverty comes slow lingering death sometimes. Nothing to be done about it. It has been explained that attempting to help the poors would actually crush them under the required taxation.
_________________________
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#320772 - 01/30/20 12:22 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
We are mostly a service-based economy now,


Which is basically saying, "Living off of our grandfathers' collected stored labor.


There is no such thing as a modern industrialized western economy that sustains itself solely on "service and services". It has never worked in the past and it won't work now. Nations have to be able to make stuff and its citizens need to be able to buy stuff.
This country's economy cannot be sustained on the fortunes enjoyed by a small handful of wealthy people and hundreds of millions of serfs working the king's garden.

And anyone who thinks this is sustainable is lying to themselves.


I don't think anyone has ever said that a modern economy can subsist solely off of services. If we back off the "solely" language and replace it with "predominantly", I think your argument would generally remain the same, but may be more true to what it is addressing.


That being said, I'm not so sure you should be this confident in it. We have never seen an economy as advanced as the current global one - humanity has never been this technologically advanced before. What is and is not sustainable in terms of technological and economic growth has not yet been determined, and, certainly, we don't appear to have reached any kind of forced-plateau.

The vast majority of our populace used to be involved in farming. The struggle just to feed ourselves and produce enough to create a surplus that we could trade and support a handful of skilled craftsmen with was real. As technology and our understanding developed, fewer and fewer of us were needed in agriculture - today about 2% of the U.S. populace has the capacity to grow enough food to feed every man woman and child on the planet (and, every year, the Federal Government spends billions of dollars making sure they don't accidentally do so). Why should "not enough of our people manufacture things" be any more of a threat than "not enough of our people grow food" was? We have a higher industrial production now than ever before, with fewer industrial workers, just as we produce more food now with fewer agricultural workers.


Edited by CPWILL (01/30/20 12:24 AM)
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#320774 - 01/30/20 12:41 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: CPWILL]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
Quote:
We have a higher industrial production now than ever before, with fewer industrial workers, just as we produce more food now with fewer agricultural workers.


Unfortunately we have more and more workers who are needed less and less. And machines create products that an unemployed populace can't afford. And machines grow food that no one can afford to eat.

Marx&Engles actually predicted this! Back in the days of steam.
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#320776 - 01/30/20 12:48 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10151
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
We have a higher industrial production now than ever before, with fewer industrial workers, just as we produce more food now with fewer agricultural workers.

Unfortunately we have more and more workers who are needed less and less. And machines create products that an unemployed populace can't afford. And machines grow food that no one can afford to eat.

Marx&Engles actually predicted this! Back in the days of steam.

As we all know, poverty is a natural part of the system. The problem is that the system is unnatural.
_________________________
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#320780 - 01/30/20 01:57 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9833
Loc: North San Diego County
If all the manufacturing employees in China want to buy American services, there is no reason why we can't live well off that. We do still manufacture a lot, but a lot of that is intellectual property. Just 0's and 1's but so is the global financial system. Nobody is shipping gold ingots around by Wells Fargo stagecoach any more. You just need to see the bigger picture: Instead of the manufacturing taking place in the industrial area south of town, it's happening in China. But anybody can buy stock in those Chinese companies, so it does not only benefit the Chinese.

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#320782 - 01/30/20 02:05 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9833
Loc: North San Diego County
Greger, you really could use a room mate. Somebody who can call 911 if they find you in a coma. There must be some undocumented Honduran or something you could give a place to sleep in exchange for that. Your "daughter" was doing that, but I think you need to replace her.

They could even go someplace else until the paramedics get there, if they need to keep a low profile. This kind of fits my thoughts on undocumented aliens: We are going to need them since our kids are pretty much useless at elder care.

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#320787 - 01/30/20 02:38 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Greger, you really could use a room mate.


I think the kid will be back. This is her first serious romance and I've got a feeling it's not gonna work out.
_________________________
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#320793 - 01/30/20 03:18 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: CPWILL]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

The vast majority of our populace used to be involved in farming. The struggle just to feed ourselves and produce enough to create a surplus that we could trade and support a handful of skilled craftsmen with was real. As technology and our understanding developed, fewer and fewer of us were needed in agriculture - today about 2% of the U.S. populace has the capacity to grow enough food to feed every man woman and child on the planet (and, every year, the Federal Government spends billions of dollars making sure they don't accidentally do so). Why should "not enough of our people manufacture things" be any more of a threat than "not enough of our people grow food" was? We have a higher industrial production now than ever before, with fewer industrial workers, just as we produce more food now with fewer agricultural workers.


Because, as was discussed here recently, the threads that hold it all together are fraying beyond repair, and the moment the trucks stop rolling, most cities will have enough stuff (including food) to last about a day or two, then the food riots start in earnest, that's why.

And even if you CAN grow some of your own food, we have stupidly allowed laws and ordinances to be passed that say you are not allowed to do it. Some will let you have a tiny garden in the back but only a lawn in front, and some don't allow you to grow anything at all anywhere on your property except a lawn and flowers.

If you can eat it, that's a big NO NO.

Now tell us all how a single mother with no car and very little cash is going to farm herself and her kids to self sufficiency in Santa Fe Springs, California on one tenth of an acre in an HOA neighborhood.

I can tell you how...her kids will join a gang.
_________________________
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#320805 - 01/30/20 07:44 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
If all the manufacturing employees in China want to buy American services, there is no reason why we can't live well off that. We do still manufacture a lot, but a lot of that is intellectual property. Just 0's and 1's but so is the global financial system. Nobody is shipping gold ingots around by Wells Fargo stagecoach any more. You just need to see the bigger picture: Instead of the manufacturing taking place in the industrial area south of town, it's happening in China. But anybody can buy stock in those Chinese companies, so it does not only benefit the Chinese.


You're joking, right? China buying our "services"?
Not in a million years.
People making between $7.25 and 15 bucks an hour buying stocks?
Yeah-okayfinewhatever...you'll have to show me proof of concept on that one.

And manufacturing has now, according to the Associated Press, fallen to the lowest level in a decade.
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#320811 - 01/30/20 08:59 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
As the economy gets stranger and stranger we are seeing a smallish movement towards cottage industries and local markets. Small family farms, local breweries, small scale creameries, stitchery and crafting of all sorts. There are countless Americans supplementing their incomes with small businesses. They can service local markets and sell their wares online. Lots of people are transitioning to a simpler life already.

The old ways are proving not to be sustainable.
The rat-race has spun out of control.
It's time to poison the rats.
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#320819 - 01/30/20 10:32 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

The vast majority of our populace used to be involved in farming. The struggle just to feed ourselves and produce enough to create a surplus that we could trade and support a handful of skilled craftsmen with was real. As technology and our understanding developed, fewer and fewer of us were needed in agriculture - today about 2% of the U.S. populace has the capacity to grow enough food to feed every man woman and child on the planet (and, every year, the Federal Government spends billions of dollars making sure they don't accidentally do so). Why should "not enough of our people manufacture things" be any more of a threat than "not enough of our people grow food" was? We have a higher industrial production now than ever before, with fewer industrial workers, just as we produce more food now with fewer agricultural workers.


Because, as was discussed here recently, the threads that hold it all together are fraying beyond repair, and the moment the trucks stop rolling, most cities will have enough stuff (including food) to last about a day or two, then the food riots start in earnest, that's why.


Okay. Why should I consider that a natural or even (as you suggest) inevitable impending impediment to growth any more than Zombies, Robot Apocalypses, or any other hypothetical dystopian presupposition?

I mean, if your measure of "this economy is sustainable" is "can this economy survive ceasing to exist", then no economy is.

Quote:
And even if you CAN grow some of your own food, we have stupidly allowed laws and ordinances to be passed that say you are not allowed to do it.


Yup. Someone decided the government needs to be in charge of those kinds of decisions. So glad we have a government that feels emboldened to stick it's nose into what we do on our own property with that degree of specificity and presumption.
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#320821 - 01/30/20 10:34 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
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Originally Posted By: Greger
As the economy gets stranger and stranger we are seeing a smallish movement towards cottage industries and local markets. Small family farms, local breweries, small scale creameries, stitchery and crafting of all sorts. There are countless Americans supplementing their incomes with small businesses. They can service local markets and sell their wares online. Lots of people are transitioning to a simpler life already.

The old ways are proving not to be sustainable.
The rat-race has spun out of control.
It's time to poison the rats.


Great idea. Let's give the government the right to determine who is and is not a productive member of society, and eliminate those it finds net non-beneficial. There's no way Donald Trump abuses that power at all.
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#320824 - 01/30/20 11:41 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
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Trump would be the first to go - in a sane world.
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#320825 - 01/31/20 12:21 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: CPWILL]
Greger Offline


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Quote:
Great idea. Let's give the government the right to determine who is and is not a productive member of society, and eliminate those it finds net non-beneficial.



The rats in government are the ones I figure to poison. You know, the ones who cater to corporate polluters and their exploitation of the workforce.
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#320828 - 01/31/20 03:13 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Quote:
You're joking, right? China buying our "services"?
Not in a million years.


So how many movies and TV shows did you work on that still have overseas sales? That's American IP that people all over the world keep on buying. I know when I was writing software for high speed DSL chips, most of the sales were in Japan. I didn't "make" anything physical, just 0's and 1's. Actually one of the first software jobs I had, way back when, was embedded software for the Japanese HandyPhone chip set. They sold that system all over Asia.

My point is, China does not just buy pork from us. They also buy ideas.

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#320834 - 01/31/20 01:09 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: CPWILL]
Hamish Howl Offline
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Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 570
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Greger
As the economy gets stranger and stranger we are seeing a smallish movement towards cottage industries and local markets. Small family farms, local breweries, small scale creameries, stitchery and crafting of all sorts. There are countless Americans supplementing their incomes with small businesses. They can service local markets and sell their wares online. Lots of people are transitioning to a simpler life already.

The old ways are proving not to be sustainable.
The rat-race has spun out of control.
It's time to poison the rats.


Great idea. Let's give the government the right to determine who is and is not a productive member of society, and eliminate those it finds net non-beneficial. There's no way Donald Trump abuses that power at all.


Right now, that function is being done by minimum wage call center employees at insurance companies.
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#320835 - 01/31/20 01:10 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: CPWILL]
Hamish Howl Offline
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Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 570
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Yup. Someone decided the government needs to be in charge of those kinds of decisions. So glad we have a government that feels emboldened to stick it's nose into what we do on our own property with that degree of specificity and presumption.


Why not? They feel they can stick their nose into peoples' bedrooms.
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#320837 - 01/31/20 02:07 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
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Originally Posted By: CPWILL
So glad we have a government that feels emboldened to stick it's nose into what we do on our own property with that degree of specificity and presumption.

Just what you doing on your property? laugh
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#320849 - 01/31/20 06:28 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline


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Maybe he's got a little cannabis garden?
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#320850 - 01/31/20 07:06 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
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Originally Posted By: Greger
Maybe he's got a little cannabis garden?
ThumbsUp
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#320852 - 01/31/20 07:35 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
Greger Offline


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For one reason or another it's incredibly important to Republican lawmakers what sex we choose to present ourselves as, which sex we choose to have sexual relations or love affairs with, and ultimately who we marry. It's important to them where you pee too.
Marriages between people with different coloured skin is frowned on but grudgingly allowed due to "liberal" court decisions. Oh and queers can get married now too but they plan to change that back along with the SC abortion ruling. There aren't enough people on the planet and so women should be forced to bear the children of their rapists, children forced to bear the children of their fathers to fulfill the word of God when he commanded that we "multiply."

Point is...Republicans not only want to tell you what you can and can't do on your own property, they wanna control what's in your pants too or under your skirt. And they better find the government approved plumbing in there when they look too!

The government has exactly two jobs as I see it. Providing for the general welfare and for the common defense. Defending us against sodomites is perhaps a Biblical thing?

What if we could unspend all the f*cking money that government has spent on marijuana prohibition?
What if we could magically have all the taxes that should have been levied on its use for the 100 years? What if government got its goddam nose out of our pants, out of our living rooms, out of our bedrooms and off of our property?

Get rid of Republicans and you get rid of most of the world's problems.
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#320860 - 01/31/20 08:30 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9833
Loc: North San Diego County
The funny thing about that South Carolina bill to ban medical intervention for trans kids is that it explicitly says "external genitalia AND genes" determine gender. But what about genetic females with male genitalia, and genetic males with female genitalia? These both happen. What does their law say about those cases? Or kids who are born with both sets of plumbing? What about all the kids who are not XX or XY genetically? There are several other possibilities.

It's like they have passed a bill declaring pi to be equal to 3.

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#320867 - 01/31/20 09:40 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


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And just for what it's worth, how about those kids born with severe gender dysphoria? Do we just call them crazy and force them into a life of misery?

That's the Republican answer.
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#320888 - 02/01/20 04:13 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
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If they have parents who go along with this BS, they are going to be forced into 18 years (or longer) of that misery. If they have parents who care, the family moves to a more enlightened state. They can come back after the surgery. I doubt South Carolina wants guys with dicks and beards using their ladies rooms. Because that is exactly what their stupid rules would require.

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#320889 - 02/01/20 04:13 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
For one reason or another it's incredibly important to Republican lawmakers what sex we choose to present ourselves as, which sex we choose to have sexual relations or love affairs with, and ultimately who we marry. It's important to them where you pee too.
Marriages between people with different coloured skin is frowned on but grudgingly allowed due to "liberal" court decisions. Oh and queers can get married now too but they plan to change that back along with the SC abortion ruling. There aren't enough people on the planet and so women should be forced to bear the children of their rapists, children forced to bear the children of their fathers to fulfill the word of God when he commanded that we "multiply."

Point is...Republicans not only want to tell you what you can and can't do on your own property, they wanna control what's in your pants too or under your skirt. And they better find the government approved plumbing in there when they look too!

The government has exactly two jobs as I see it. Providing for the general welfare and for the common defense. Defending us against sodomites is perhaps a Biblical thing?

What if we could unspend all the f*cking money that government has spent on marijuana prohibition?
What if we could magically have all the taxes that should have been levied on its use for the 100 years? What if government got its goddam nose out of our pants, out of our living rooms, out of our bedrooms and off of our property?

Get rid of Republicans and you get rid of most of the world's problems.




Well shee-it howdy, that's some libertarianism I can get behind!
:applaud: Bow
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#320890 - 02/01/20 04:19 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
You're joking, right? China buying our "services"?
Not in a million years.


So how many movies and TV shows did you work on that still have overseas sales?


None that went to China, that's for sure.
Yes, of course we're selling movie and other IP over there now, but look at the terms of the agreements.
What I was getting at is, we can't all be IP folks, or in IP marketing and distro, and we can't all be CEO's and day traders and sell insurance to each other all day long.

Some people have to work at making stuff. Hard goods, finished goods, durable and expendable. We can't just have all our raw materials siphoned off and sold back to us.

If manufacturing ever returns to any significant degree, much of it's going to be highly automated, of course. But we still have to have people engaged in manufacturing.

Nations that have narrow economies that are strictly focused on a limited range of things are vulnerable. We've seen it too many times.
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#320902 - 02/01/20 06:50 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
Quote:
that's some libertarianism I can get behind!


That's not libertarianism...it's democratic socialism. And unlike libertarianism it's been tried, it's working, and it's spreading.

It's kind of like global warming. People deny that it's a thing. They call it another thing and point in a different direction.
I say science, and they say God.
I say Switzerland, they say Venezuela.
I say Sweden and they say Cuba.
I say Denmark and they say CCCP
Y'see?

The ultimate goal, I admit, is socialism. But only if Society wants to be socialist. That could be a thousand years in the future or never. If you don't yet understand social democracy, Please Read the WIKI explanation.

I think it's where we're headed. Witness the rise of progressives among blue voters. It scares the establishment. As it should because it is the beginning of the end for them. It is the new status quo. Where government works for everybody.

And I think that unless we start moving more quickly in that direction we might very well be doomed as a species.

Convince me I'm wrong. Please.
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#320906 - 02/01/20 07:56 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
that's some libertarianism I can get behind!


That's not libertarianism...it's democratic socialism. And unlike libertarianism it's been tried, it's working, and it's spreading.

It's kind of like global warming. People deny that it's a thing. They call it another thing and point in a different direction.
I say science, and they say God.
I say Switzerland, they say Venezuela.
I say Sweden and they say Cuba.
I say Denmark and they say CCCP
Y'see?

The ultimate goal, I admit, is socialism. But only if Society wants to be socialist. That could be a thousand years in the future or never. If you don't yet understand social democracy, Please Read the WIKI explanation.

I think it's where we're headed. Witness the rise of progressives among blue voters. It scares the establishment. As it should because it is the beginning of the end for them. It is the new status quo. Where government works for everybody.

And I think that unless we start moving more quickly in that direction we might very well be doomed as a species.

Convince me I'm wrong. Please.


Greger quit weighing my words down to the nanogram. ROTFMOL
When I said "that's some libertarianism I can get behind", I started off saying "shee-it howdy!"
Of course it's "democratic socialism/social democracy" and of course it's Switzerland and not "Cuber".

And as far as "as it should be"...it's going to take progressives doing to the DNC what the Tea Party did to the old line traditional cons. We are going to have to do the Lefty version of "draining the swamp" and primary all the "conserv-a-dem" moguls who think it's okay to change the rules mid-stream so that progressives can't get in.
We ain't knocking, we're jimmying the lock and we're marching in whether they like it or not.
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#320909 - 02/01/20 08:59 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
Quote:
We ain't knocking, we're jimmying the lock and we're marching in whether they like it or not.


When an idea's time has come it's hard to stop it.
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#320910 - 02/01/20 09:06 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
On the other hand when a heavy handed right wing dictatorship is overthrown by a leftist revolution and the winner tries to declare socialism...it never works. Witness, Venezuela...Cuba...the CCCP...
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