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#320696 - 01/28/20 06:16 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: CPWILL]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17310
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I suppose, if I had to respond


You don't. But if you must you might at least try making sense.

Donald Trump has increased the national debt by one Trillion dollars each year of his presidency. What we REALLY can't afford is Republican leadership. What exactly is he doing with that money? Where is it going? Ah...of course....we're spending it all on poor people! It's the f*cking poors driving us into debt! And always demanding more more more from our hardworking Billionaires. If we raise their taxes they will become poor too and whatever will happen then?

Democratic socialism isn't terribly expensive. How's the national debt of Canada doing? Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland? Many other nations manage to afford socialized healthcare with destroying themselves or "running out of other people's money"

I've cut the nuts off of hogs that squealed less than Republicans about paying their goddam taxes.
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#320697 - 01/28/20 06:26 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3630
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Again - the word "socialism" is the problem. I just don't understand why some insist on that word as it poisons the well. Please notice that Police departments, Fire departments, public schools and libraries are ALL paid for by taxes and, for the most part, supported by conservatives. If you hang a name on them they would foam at the mouth. They actually tried, several years ago in the South to libertarianize a Fire department. If you didn't subscribe to the fire department they let your house burn down. It worked until they were letting a house burn down and the house next door also burned down. They went back to the tax paid fire department thing.

Just saying..............

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#320699 - 01/28/20 07:09 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: jgw]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 608
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: jgw
Again - the word "socialism" is the problem.


Speaking as a socialist, I find the problem to be people listening to talking points pumped out by billionaires.
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#320700 - 01/28/20 07:15 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17310
Loc: Florida
That seems to be proof that libertarianism doesn't work. Perhaps you should explain to me how Medicare and Social Security also don't work and how we are trying to abolish these systems as they are too expensive?

Or how Socialized healthcare is not working worldwide and how nations which have switched to it are clamoring to adopt an American style system of healthcare.?

Or how nations which have embraced social democracy are failing and going back to supporting only the 1%?

I have the courage not to vote for a candidate I don't like and who does not represent me or my views. I invite you and all the others who are terrified of a word you don't understand to vote against Bernie in the primaries and withhold your votes if Bernie should get the nomination.

I can assure you I will withhold mine if Biden is the nominee.
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#320712 - 01/28/20 11:51 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
That seems to be proof that libertarianism doesn't work. Perhaps you should explain to me how Medicare and Social Security also don't work and how we are trying to abolish these systems as they are too expensive?

Or how Socialized healthcare is not working worldwide and how nations which have switched to it are clamoring to adopt an American style system of healthcare.?

Or how nations which have embraced social democracy are failing and going back to supporting only the 1%?

I have the courage not to vote for a candidate I don't like and who does not represent me or my views. I invite you and all the others who are terrified of a word you don't understand to vote against Bernie in the primaries and withhold your votes if Bernie should get the nomination.

I can assure you I will withhold mine if Biden is the nominee.


Bernie has not been spastically uttering that "S word" lately, he's just getting down to talking business and offering solutions.
Just doing that is better marketing all by itself...don't call it anything. Call it common sense, that's all.
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#320714 - 01/29/20 12:40 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
I am having increasing difficulty believing that the economy is going gangbusters, and with this most recent revelation, I am beginning to believe that the reporting agencies are being ordered to spew out manufactured bald-faced lies and made up figures.

U.S. factory sector in 10 year deepest slump - REUTERS

I was told there would be winning.
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#320716 - 01/29/20 12:55 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10381
Loc: North San Diego County
We are mostly a service-based economy now, and Trump has done nothing to bring back manufacturing. The activity level of a service-based economy depends mostly on buyer sentiment, not numbers like factory output. Consumers think the economy is good, so it's good. All smoke and mirrors with people thinking "businessman" Trump is making a difference. When consumer confidence falls, the whole house of cards tumbles down.

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#320719 - 01/29/20 01:57 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 470
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

That's the problem with socialism, after all. Sooner or later, you run out of other people's money.


Only if they're simultaneously paying taxes AND paying for private sector healthcare both.
If they're just paying their taxes, the ones from those decent paying GOOD jobs...you know, the ones that you say have spurred such record shrinking of the middle class "due to the explosion of UPPER class" that you previously referred to...then with the disappearance of those monster private sector healthcare insurance premiums and copays, it's a net positive because we wind up paying slightly less, whereas private sector healthcare spending is guaranteed to hit 40 to FIFTY trillion dollars, at the rate it is growing right now

Since when do we run out of taxpayer money?


Since people respond to incentives.

1. Under no set of tax rates - even when the top rates were in the low 90s - did we capture even enough of GDP to pay for the programs we already have. We have never come close to what we would need for the massive additional expenditures of the type being proposed.

2. Which is why Warren's MFA plan was so widely panned - even by some left wing sources, which was entertaining - and why Bernie doesn't really talk much about how he's going to have to crush the middle and lower middle class with taxes.

Quote:
Oh, that's right...when we cut and cut and cut and then keep cutting until the most liable are paying almost no taxes at all...because:
Trickle Down.


1. There is no theory of "Trickle Down Economics", that is not how Supply Side economics works.

2. It is funny, however, how after we cut, revenues increase.


Quote:
Maybe someone gave a few too many tax cuts to a few too many peeps, and maybe their allergy to adjusting the SS income cap is also biting them in the derriere.


Sure. We can pay for the Progressive Dream Wish with a payroll tax increase. We just need to hike the payroll tax rate to about 50%, disproportionately crushing the poor.

Quote:
The point is, public options and single payer healthcare and all those good things do require a solid and dependable tax base in order to function, but one only runs out of "other people's money" when one is busily engaged IN - - - - - OTHERING everyone else.
The more we "other" and condition everyone to engage in "othering", the more it BECOMES "other people's money" and that is because it becomes less and less a civic obligation as the cost of living in civilized society.

So I can readily understand just how annoying all that must sound to a group of rugged individualists who have grown up as the beneficiaries of legacy social/public goods and services that, in reality, used to be so dependable as to be taken for granted, as if they were the very air we breathe.
Which brings me to another minor point, namely that up till recently, the very air we DO breathe is something of a taxpayer supported public good because a lot of tax money went into ideas and programs that CLEANED UP the very air we are breathing.

That air, that water, those roads, bridges and tunnels, those dams, literally all those public goods reek of a quasi-socialist underpinning and pretty much every last one of us benefited from them unless we grew up on an Indian reservation out in the middle of BFE.



Let me know if there is anything in that you actually want me to respond to... because it didn't seem as if there was.
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#320720 - 01/29/20 02:06 AM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 470
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
I suppose, if I had to respond


You don't. But if you must you might at least try making sense.


smile It is usually a goal.

Quote:
Donald Trump has increased the national debt by one Trillion dollars each year of his presidency.


I know, right? Gosh, it's almost as if he was a big-government inchoate liar whose bailouts of the farmer victims of his trade war have already cost twice as much as Obama's bailouts of the auto industry.

Quote:
What exactly is he doing with that money? Where is it going? Ah...of course....we're spending it all on poor people! It's the f*cking poors driving us into debt!


Mostly it's the Entitlements.

Quote:
And always demanding more more more from our hardworking Billionaires. If we raise their taxes they will become poor too and whatever will happen then?


Well, no. They will make the rational decision to limit their tax exposure, and we will end up expending ever more energy doing ever more damage to our economy trying to hunt down and kill golden-egg-laying-geese.

Quote:
Democratic socialism isn't terribly expensive. How's the national debt of Canada doing? Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland?


I don't know if I'd put Switzerland on that list, and, IIRC, a couple of those countries have been moving away from Democratic Socialism lately, after it proved to be too expensive.

Though, if you want to massively exploit our oil deposits, as Norway does, I might be willing to agree to that smile.

Quote:
Many other nations manage to afford socialized healthcare with destroying themselves or "running out of other people's money"


Actually they do - which is why those countries end up having to centrally ration care, and cut their defense budgets to the bone, depending on the United States to pick up their slack.

Quote:
I've cut the nuts off of hogs that squealed less than Republicans about paying their goddam taxes.


:shrug:
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Winter Is Coming

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#320733 - 01/29/20 02:09 PM Re: Boomers have socialism. Why not Millennials? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 608
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
We are mostly a service-based economy now,


Which is basically saying, "Living off of our grandfathers' collected stored labor.
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